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  • Blue on Blue Tape

    'Friendly fire' footage revealed
    The cockpit video at the centre of a row over the "friendly-fire" death of a British soldier in Iraq has been obtained by the Sun newspaper.

    An inquest into the death of Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, 25, from Berks, was adjourned after the coroner said the tape was central to the case.

    The video was classified "secret" by the US, but minister Harriet Harman wants all evidence made available.

    The Sun says it shows a 2003 US aircraft attack on a British convoy.

    The deputy chief of mission at the US Embassy in London, David Johnson, said it was considering de-classifying the video if the military considered it would not put forces at risk in future.

    The Sun has published a transcript of what it says was said by US military personnel on the video.

    At the start of the attack, one pilot notices orange panels on the vehicles and asks whether there could be any friendly units in the area.

    His command gives assurances there are no coalition forces in the area.

    We're in jail, dude
    American pilot on tape

    Pilots open fire but soon the error is realised and they are informed that friendly units were in the area.

    They are told: "Abort your mission. You got a, looks we might have a blue-on-blue situation [a friendly fire incident]."

    An air controller on the ground says: "We are getting an initial brief that there was one killed and one wounded, over."

    One pilot replies: "Copy. RTB [return to base]." A colleague says: "I'm going to be sick."

    They then talk about the possibility of being jailed for carrying out the attack.

    'Weeping'

    The first pilot says: "Did you hear?" His colleague replies: "Yeah, this sucks."

    "We're in jail, dude," says the first.

    The other pilot then weeps, saying: "God dammit".

    Whilst the Americans cannot be legally obliged to help, they should do so, bearing in mind they are our allies
    Constitutional Affairs minister Harriet Harman

    The BBC's defence correspondent Paul Wood said it was obvious from the recording that the pilots were appalled by their mistake.

    "They are not just remorseful, they are weeping. They are beside themselves."

    Defence analyst Paul Beaver said: "I can see no reason for classifying it, other than it is deeply embarrassing to the US military.

    He said it showed a "catalogue of errors" including pilots ignoring orange panels on vehicles - the NATO symbol for friendly forces.

    "You have to ask were they fit for flying at that time? What sort of training do they have?"

    The Sun has released footage to television and radio stations, but is not giving other websites permission to use clips.

    It is not known who leaked the video to the newspaper, but the US government says it will be prosecute whoever is responsible.

    Constitutional Affairs minister Ms Harman said she would not be drawn on whether the source of the leak should be prosecuted.

    However she did say she would be holding meetings with British officials throughout the day to discuss how to resolve the matter.

    "We have always had a very clear view that what matters is the information should be available to the family and, whilst the Americans cannot be legally obliged to help, they should do so, bearing in mind they are our allies," she added.

    Last week, when the existence of the tape came to light, L/CoH Hull's widow, Susan, described it as an "absolute disgrace" that she had been assured by the military no such tape existed.

    L/CoH Hull, from the Household Cavalry Regiment, died from multiple injuries inside his blazing Scimitar tank, despite efforts by colleagues to save him.

    He was travelling in a column of light armoured vehicles near the southern Iraqi city of Basra when it was reportedly attacked by a US A-10 "tankbuster" aircraft.

    Furious attack

    On Friday, Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker was forced to adjourn L/CoH Hull's hearing because the MoD had failed to provide the inquest with a recording.

    He had earlier launched a furious attack on the MoD for refusing to release the tape.

    There has never been any intention to deliberately deceive or mislead L/CoH Hull's family
    MoD

    The MoD said it was given a copy of the video by the US government for its own investigation into the incident.

    "This recording is the property of the United States government and the MoD does not have the right to release it without their permission," it said in a statement.

    L/CoH Hull's family had been told that some classified material has been withheld, "but we did not specify its exact nature", the statement added.

    "There has never been any intention to deliberately deceive or mislead L/CoH Hull's family."

    However, Mr Johnson, from London's US Embassy, said the US government had been in discussions with Harriet Harman and other officials over the tape.

    A Pentagon spokeswoman said the US government never released documents that were part of an investigation.

    The Pentagon is understood to have a longstanding position of not letting US servicemen appear before foreign tribunals.
    Story from BBC NEWS:
    BBC NEWS | England | 'Friendly fire' footage revealed
    I don't post this to be anti-American. I don't post it to call for the arrest of the pilots. War is war, accidents happen. What has annoyed me is the "cover up" mentality, whereby the US and UK deliberately deceived the courts and the widow into believing there was no tape of the attack.

    I understand the USA's desire to protect its servicemen, and its military secrets - but the tape could easily have been doctored to remove sensitive military details.

    What annoys me is the disregard that both sides have shown for a grieving widow in lying and then presenting a half-arsed cover-up with extremely poor excuses after they have been proven to be withholding information.

    Sh*t happens in war - we at least need to be as honest about it as we can. It reflects extremely poorly on the DoD and the MoD.

    The other concern is that, if positions were reversed, I would expect to see a chorus of calls for the pilots involved to stand trial in the US, or least have been disciplined.

  • #2
    PubFather,

    I concur that there is no reason that this tape should have been hidden from the family of the soldier that was killed. I can understand waiting until the investigation of the incident is complete before playing the tape for the family so as not to allow pre-judicial comments to affect a potential trial if the investigation pointed to criminal negligence; however, once the investigation is complete, then what is to be gained by not providing details to the family?

    My condolences to the family, who is obviously now having to relive their pain because of the failure to inform them of the tape's existence previously.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

    Comment


    • #3
      PubFather,agreed,but when too much s##t happens by one side ,the public,especially the Brits,will never except the real sequences of events when the truth has been withheld,by no matter who, US or UK. US Gen LEFRENCE has apologised, but I'm afraid the public in the UK also see this as an afterthought!
      Last edited by dave lukins; 08 Feb 07,, 00:03.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
        PubFather,agreed,but when too much s##t happens by one side ,the public,especially the Brits,will never except the real sequences of events when the truth has been withheld,by no matter who, US or UK. US Gen LEFRENCE has apologised, but I'm afraid the public in the UK also see this as an afterthought!
        True Dave, how many Brit Blue on Blue incidents were recorded in both Gulf wars - none as far as I am aware and I was in the Ops cell at High Command during the first excursion and cannot recall any happening but plenty coming from the other side. That said, I concede that Sgt Roberts RTR was shot by one of his troop members whilst he was on the ground.

        Comment


        • #5
          hey guys, I is back.......

          I have always said...and still stand by it,
          The Americna militry might, is number 1, but there standard
          of soildering is less to be desired..!

          And the cockkpit shows that calibre...
          Come on orange rockets.... what next pink tanks with fluffy grey Turrets..!!!
          Ground Control did not give the go ahead for them to fire, as
          they were not to sure of what that convoy was. Yet he fired.
          On the second wave of attack the convoy had pulled out,
          Nato standard smoke distress signals.... again the yank pilot
          fired..!

          The blame goes higher up then the pilots, thats just due to Icompatence, Training, lack of experience and Cowboy attidute.
          'High command' should have known what was going on and in what sector. That is why it is all grid refrence, with kill zones and non-fire zones/squares.
          All coaliton forces are linked to the same communication systems.
          AWACS did not know what was going on on the battlefield. [so much for technology]. or should we Fault the user's..??

          The americans have a long standing tradition of not allowing there service men to be prosecuted, under another countrys court of LAw. Fair enough, but to release them and allow them to teach,
          Is an insult not just to the Familly of the died soilder but to every British and coalition soilder, who fights with and for the yanks..!

          Blue on Blue does occur, realites and spoils of war, but it seems to happen to often with the yanks. they have bombed Canadian and British forces..... they have shot down a british Tornado....they have had, head on helicopter coliison.... list goes on.

          In regards to Callmecur
          In 2nd gulf war the was a British incident of Blue on Blue one chally hit another chally, causing one soilder to die, apparently its was atrocies weather one could not see more then 2 metres away.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Callmecur View Post
            True Dave, how many Brit Blue on Blue incidents were recorded in both Gulf wars - none as far as I am aware and I was in the Ops cell at High Command during the first excursion and cannot recall any happening but plenty coming from the other side. That said, I concede that Sgt Roberts RTR was shot by one of his troop members whilst he was on the ground.
            Not sure about Granby, but on Telic 1 in addition to Sgt Roberts there was also the case where one Chally 2 engaged another (the top of the tank was barely visible behind a berm, and IIRC HESH was used to engage it with the blast killing two crewmen). Finally, there was a case where a RM hovercraft was engaged by a UK (I think also RM, but I'm not sure) Milan post, with one marine being killed.
            Rule 1: Never trust a Frenchman
            Rule 2: Treat all members of the press as French

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Simullacrum View Post
              And the cockkpit shows that calibre...
              Come on orange rockets.... what next pink tanks with fluffy grey Turrets..!!!
              Ground Control did not give the go ahead for them to fire, as they were not to sure of what that convoy was.
              Umm... not exactly. The ROE they were under was that anything not positively identified as friendly should be engaged, and they repeatedly checked with their FAC (MANILA HOTEL) that there were no friendly forces in the area. The FAC gave them positive confirmation that they were clear of all friendly forces.
              They assumed friendly forces when they initially saw the orange, but only misidentified them as orange rockets when they were assured that there were no friendly forces in the area. A classic case of seeing what you expect to see, and fitting what you do see to what you want to see.
              The only thing I can fault the A-10 pilots for is not descending lower to get positive ID (IIRC they were at about 12,000 ft until the actual attack went in). Given that they weren't flying straight and level at any point in the video but were instead jinking all over the shop, they clearly expected some form of SAM/Flak threat which probably explains this.

              Originally posted by Simullacrum View Post
              On the second wave of attack the convoy had pulled out, Nato standard smoke distress signals.... again the yank pilot fired..!
              Did he see them? The smoke was seen shortly after the second attack (after they got the radio call from LIGHTNING 34 telling them that friendly forces were in the area) - but despite the A-10 pilots watching the guys on the ground they don't see smoke until 23 seconds after the radio call from LIGHTNING 34. By this time they had already aborted the attack.
              Rule 1: Never trust a Frenchman
              Rule 2: Treat all members of the press as French

              Comment


              • #8
                Totally agree with you in flying lower for more of a positive recce.

                In regards to ground control, yes they made the mistake of saying no friendlies where in the area, but they where skeptical on what the pilot was relaying to them. They did not give the go ahead for an Attack.
                Thus not following procedure. They are there for a reason.!

                Manilla:-
                'Asked for rocket launchers to be ID.'

                pilot:-
                I think they are orange rocket launchers'

                Manilla :-
                'Orange Rocket launchers...???'

                Pilot:-
                'yeah think so'


                to many thinks's....there is no way in hell i would fire on something if i was not 100%, if i was to do so i would be in a hell of alot of trouble and I would be serverly repremanded. If even if i was told its there if i didnt have a visual with my two beedy eyes I would be hesitent on proceedings, and what my actions would be..!

                it wasent like he was in the heat of battle with AA guns , sams, or even fighter planes on his arse. he had plenty of time and opurtunity to recce/fly over and id.

                aslo another suttle give away, since one is enept of recognising coalition vehicles.
                [basic training for any miliatry persoanel especially a fighter pilot, is being able to distinguish between different vehicles]......the convoy was evenly spaced and driving with an even speed. We are talking about the taliban here not an army, dont hink somehow they would be driving in 'military' type convoy with presicion.

                Another point Orange is the standard NATO sign for coalition/friendly forces..... so what you telling me the taliban got paint of glossy orange dulux paint and painted rocket launchers orange and stuck them on top a military vehicle..??
                A Scimiter in no way in hell looks like a ZIL157 as one of the pilots claimed he
                thought it was....one has a turret on it the other which can be turned into a miltary personal carrier [usually used as a truck] doesent, just has a machine gun. one has tracks the other has wheels.!
                Even steve wonder would be able to distinguish the two.!!!

                Not 100% on the smoke, but probably be able to find out.
                Last edited by Simullacrum; 08 Feb 07,, 12:52.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Errr.... this was on Telic 1, i.e. the invasion of Iraq rather than Afghanistan. The area this strike took place in was believed to contain an Iraqi army armoured division. There were plenty of TV pictures/general press coverage of coalition vehicles with orange panels on them, and I have no doubt that the Iraqi army is bright enough that someone must have thought about painting their vehicles with bright orange panels to keep the airstrikes away.

                  You're also confusing US and UK RoE. These A-10s were operating under RoE which said that anything not positively identified as friendly was to be engaged. So far as I'm aware the UK never operates under such RoE, largely I suspect as a cultural legacy of our 30 years in Northern Ireland.
                  While this has obvious risks with regard to fratricide, the US RoE have benefits too. Remember the comment from Afghanistan about the RAF being "utterly, utterly useless"? A lot of this is to do with the fact that they can't drop very close to our guys without exact positive ID of the enemy position. The US RoE let them drop/fire much closer in and faster, which has no doubt saved a hell of a lot of lives/injuries in Afghanistan. However, they were probably inappropriate close to the forward edge of an advancing army - and such parts of the inquiry as have been published supported this.
                  Rule 1: Never trust a Frenchman
                  Rule 2: Treat all members of the press as French

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Since the cockpit video has now been released to the public and its authenticity doesn't seem contested, may I suggest anyone willing to make his own opinion to either watch the video in full or read the transcript in full.

                    I posted both of these in the Random Thoughts on the Mighty Hog thread.

                    My feeling is that, so far, the media coverage of this tragic incident in the UK has been less than impartial to say the least.
                    Last edited by Shipwreck; 08 Feb 07,, 14:31.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yeah sorry m8 gulf it was....my mind is on overload at the moment, so much to think so much to do.
                      Been many incidents of FF, keeping track is of what, when, why, and how, is a tsak intself. Especially when there so much ******** flying all over from both sides.

                      i can agree with you on that the Iraqis might have been bright enough to do so. But hey, thats a lot of ifs. In this case it wasent, nor was there any reports of such doings.

                      Anyhow i agree the Rule of Engagement are different. thats what diferentiates our forces from theres. and in some instance some prevail and other dont.
                      Hopefully a british document will come forth....this document was produced and conducted with yank counter parts into the cause of the situation and from the British side I hear things werent that great. And condem the pilot of not following procedure of that time and place.
                      It would be nice for it to also come out....but knowing us...we are actully worse at holding on to things and keeping secrets then the yanks are.!

                      We will never get the full picture or story.....but my bee in my bonet is that those pilots and those higher in command should not be exonerated and still be allowed into the miliatry climbing ranks and teaching others.
                      Should be accountable for ones actions.
                      how many times has this happened, and been delt with the same way...just keeps happening.
                      Like i said if i did anything along the same lines, id be screwed, hung and quartered. thats why i try and be 100% with my actions. Dont mind engaging the enmey for what ever reason or purpose my government sees fit, But do have a problem with the killing of innocent life/by standers, and even a bigger problem killing a brother in arms.

                      sim out

                      p.s. shipwreck i have the full transcript, in front of me in A4 paper and black and white Ink.! your point is..?
                      Last edited by Simullacrum; 08 Feb 07,, 14:31.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Simullacrum View Post
                        The Americna militry might, is number 1, but there standard of soildering is less to be desired..!
                        Originally posted by Simullacrum View Post
                        The blame goes higher up then the pilots, thats just due to Icompatence, Training, lack of experience and Cowboy attidute.
                        Originally posted by Simullacrum View Post
                        p.s. shipwreck i have the full transcript, in front of me in A4 paper and black and white Ink.! your point is..?
                        My point is that the British media, for the most part, has been full of comments on *Trigger Happy Murrican Pilot* in the last few days, and that it's probably a wise thing to analyze the video/transcript before relaying said comments any further.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          my friend, im not relaying media comments, about yankie happy triger fingering.....im talking from experince, I have both trained with, fought with, and tought the yanks. I have also been on the receiving end of FF, and im fortunate enough still be here.
                          This is but one incident.
                          The gripe the British people have is of the cover up, and the soilders involved getting off, and not only of the ynaks but of the British as well for keeping shut.
                          im sure if it was on the other foot a brit killing a yank...and both governmanets covering it up for 4 years, the media and people would be moaning about it to....or do you think they would be patting ones government and pilot on there back for doing so...???
                          Last edited by Simullacrum; 08 Feb 07,, 15:06.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shipwreck View Post
                            My point is that the British media, for the most part, has been full of comments on *Trigger Happy Murrican Pilot* in the last few days, and that it's probably a wise thing to analyze the video/transcript before relaying said comments any further.
                            Tut tut, Shipwreck. 'Wisdom' and 'Media' in the same sentence? I can only admire your idealism, sadly misplaced though it might be!
                            Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by glyn View Post
                              Tut tut, Shipwreck. 'Wisdom' and 'Media' in the same sentence? I can only admire your idealism, sadly misplaced though it might be!
                              Huh Glyn,

                              Idealism ? I am much too old for that...

                              If wisdom is needed, it's precisely because most British media totally lacked it in the first place.

                              Besides, if there's one opinion I'd like to read on WAB about this tragic incident, it would probably be have to be yours.

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