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Racism in the United States and Canada

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  • #61
    Ok on watching this report it does look damming, but you have to go deeper and perhaps hearing from an immigrant it may help to make things a little clearer, when Mrs tigger and I decide to make our life in Canada 2 years prior to my retirement from that British Army we started the process, we could not have had any better assistence if we had begged for it, the final decision was to be made as long as my wife could follow her career in her field, my career was coming to an end rmember and she had been a wonderful support to me in mine so it was my turn. Dealing with the Canadian officildom we found was a very easy time, yes we had to prove we were financialy capable of looking after ourselves and would not be a burden etc etc to the welfare system etc that was not an issue, next we made a trip and purchased a house my wife also researched the job market in her field and asked if her qualifications aquired in the UK would be acknowledged, as it transpired there was 2 of her qualifications they said would not be accepted, so she asked what she had to do, bottom line she did not want to go back to University for 3 years so she requested if she could "challenge" the exams after a few weeks of uncertainty she was granted permission to do this if she felt she could. At our own expense.
    The arrangments were made she duly came to Canada sat the exams and duly "aced" them yes she is the brains of the family following this our imigration was approved and my wife applied for various jobs in her field and finally accepted one of Executive Director of a large agency here in Medicine Hat which she has held now for about 8 years.

    I think the report in the W5 presentation does not show the whole picture, there is lots of work in Canada for "blue collar" trades its well known that Canada is going to suffer a huge shortfall in this area if something is not done,in the area of "white collar" professions I guess what I am saying is I agree the system is at fault somewhat in that points can GAIN you immigration because of education and qualifications achieved in your home country, but IT DOES NOT guarentee you a job.
    You have to be prepared to do a lot of groundwork yourself and I agree with this. And if you are not prepared to retake exams if required then you need to rethink if you are prepared to move to another country with different laws.

    There is a shortage of doctors, accountants engineers etc but not in the numbers that are coming to Canada,plus they are training and educating a lot of Canadians in these fields so each year new Doctors, accountant, engineers etc are leaving university and require positions.

    That being said as much as feel sorry for a highly qualified person who ends up cleaning offices, or sweeping the steps of Canada house, why do they stay? is it because there standard of living is higher as a cleaner in Canada than as a Doctor in there native land?

    Is it also right to hold the Canadian governmet accountabe for your lack of research before making such a huge decision for you and your family

    It is possible to enquire about jobs prior to immiagrating and be pretty sure you will get one, but no matter your qualifications it does not guarentee a position if you just come in "hope" you may have to take what you get.
    Mr. Tigger Sir,

    I am also an immigrant. I came to Canada with my father about 5 years ago. Before coming to Canada, my father, who is a mechanical engineer, had worked as a senior manager in Telco (part of the TATA group, which recently bought the European steel maker Corus), and General Manager in Skanska (a Swedish construction company executing a highway project in India). The last offer he received before coming to Canada was as a Vice President of a Bangalore based company.

    When we applied for immigration, we were told by the Canadian High Commission that Canada's construction industry was growing by leaps and bounds and that they were facing a skilled worker shortage. We were told that since he had worked in the industry for so many years, he would not face much problem in requalification-the only exams he would have to take were Professional Ethics and Law to get the PEng designation. We believed what the Canadian High Commission told us, because, after all, the Canadian government wouldn't lie so blatantly to anyone.

    After coming here, he found out that it was a completely different picture. He came in contact with many professionals who had emigrated from India in the past, and were unable to find jobs in their field. He eventually applied to over 500 jobs, but got only 3 interviews.

    And that's not just his story. If you go to any manufacturing facility in Toronto and the GTA, you will find that 95% of the workers are immigrants who were working at high positions in their respective countries. I worked during the summer at many such places, and was often embarrassed because the persons working around me were doctors, engineers, and mathematicians who had a long career in their respective countries.

    If you live in the GTA or in Vancouver/Montreal, you will find that a large portion of the taxi drivers are usually South Asian. When I came here to Thunder Bay, the taxi driver that drove me to the train station was a Sikh gentleman who wad worked for 18 years as a electrical engineer back home. I worked in a warehouse a few years ago, and one of my colleagues was a 50 year old gentleman, doing the same job as I, but who had worked as a mathematics professor back in Poland.

    Sire, you may not have faced discrimination because you are from the UK, and (most likely), white. Most others, especially those from Asia, the middle east, and Eastern Europe, have faced a lot of discrimination here, and hence do not identify with this country.

    I myself was asked to write an English test when I applied to university, inspite of me telling them that my entire schooling back home was in a convent school, and that I had consistently obtained high marks in English. They refused to listen. So what happens? After I take my first English course here, I am invited to work as a Tutor in their learning centre. Big surprise there.

    Sir, there are many reasons why immigrants stay back here, inspite of these hardships. My father wants to go back to India, but he has stayed back to support me while I finish my engineering degree. Other immigrants have other problems. Many people I know had sold off everything they had back home to come to Canada. It is harder for people from poorer countries to immigrate to Canada because of the high currency conversion rate (1 CAD = 37 Rs). Now, even if they do decide to go back, there is nothing to go back to. Others had taken loans from friends and family to raise the $10,000 required by the Canadian High Commission. They cannot go back empty handed. Still others fear going back just because of the shame and humiliation they would face from their relatives.

    It is very easy for people to ask, "If you don't like it here, why don't you go back?" But they do not take all these problems into account.

    It is no wonder that many people feel cheated after coming here. The experiences they get here are not consistent with the rosy pictures that the Canadian High commission paints in their home countries.

    Hence, most immigrants just use Canada as a stepping stone to the US. The US is seen to not discriminate as much against its minorities as Canada is. Also, the US has a much larger job market. They actually have tons of large homegrown companies, unlike Canada whose economy relies on selling its natural resources to the US. Except that, there isn't much to be appreciated here.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      It's fake. There is no city in Canada called Metropolitan.
      The "license" also has a ficticious telephone number with a "555" prefix. This prefix has long been reserved in North America for hollywood and media use (except for the common "555-1212" directory assistance number that works with all area codes).

      I looked at the Toronto municipal licensing website, taxicab training services, etc. No where can I find a number with a 555 prefix.

      The image is simply the product of a ad campaign, nothing more, nothing less.
      Last edited by highsea; 04 Mar 07,, 23:31.
      "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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      • #63
        There are times I wonder if immigrants leave their thinking cap at the door once they step through the embassy. Do you trust an Indian bureaucrat telling you how easy it is to get into the Indian Military Academies? Then, why would you trust a Canadian bureaucrat telling you how rosy Canada is?

        I'm sorry for your father. He was lied to. PEng is damned hard to get. And the fact of the matter is, it's an Old Boys Club. The same with the Professional Engineers, Doctors, University Professors, and even the military. We'll treat you with respect if you're visiting but lo if you want to penetrate our ranks when you have not gone through our testing grounds.

        With the advent of the internet, there should have been enough horror stories out there to make your father think twice. I would not have come here without a firm job offer and the company pays for the qualification tests.

        Comment


        • #64
          Response to gamercube

          I hear what you are saying, ok if you think its because we were from the UK your choice, all I am saying is we took nothing on face value and double checked and researched everything, it being such a huge decision on our part.
          In Medicine Hat where we reside I would say that 20% of the medical community are of an Asian background, that to me does not sound in the least bit discriminatory, I am not saying that you are not being factual I just see a different view, and calgary is the same.
          You did not address my question though, if as you say you have Asian professionals who have been doing "menial tasks" for over 15 years, then why do they stay and not return home to follow there careers? or indeed as you stated moved on or tried to move on to the USA.
          sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

          Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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          • #65
            re

            Do you trust an Indian bureaucrat telling you how easy it is to get into the Indian Military Academies? Then, why would you trust a Canadian bureaucrat telling you how rosy Canada is?
            Sir,

            Indians do not trust their government at all because it is rife with corruption, bribery, nepotism, and inefficiency. We held the Canadian High Commission (CHC) to a much higher standard, because Canada being a first world country, we thought that we could trust it much more than the Indian government.

            I'm sorry for your father. He was lied to. PEng is damned hard to get. And the fact of the matter is, it's an Old Boys Club. The same with the Professional Engineers, Doctors, University Professors, and even the military. We'll treat you with respect if you're visiting but lo if you want to penetrate our ranks when you have not gone through our testing grounds.
            The problem is that immigrants find it extremely hard to even get called to an interview. After all, an interview is where you actually get to meet your prospective employees. Employers are not even willing to give a chance to immigrants to just talk to them for a few minutes to find out about their skills and experience. They dismiss them out of hand if they are Asian, East European or African. This cannot be just because of an Old Boys Club. There is a feeling of institutional racism against immigrants.

            I hear what you are saying, ok if you think its because we were from the UK your choice, all I am saying is we took nothing on face value and double checked and researched everything, it being such a huge decision on our part.
            In Medicine Hat where we reside I would say that 20% of the medical community are of an Asian background, that to me does not sound in the least bit discriminatory, I am not saying that you are not being factual I just see a different view, and calgary is the same.
            Sir, the statistics speak for themselves. Let me post a few links here:

            TheStar.com - News - A family consumed by long hours, low pay
            Canadians are too slow to reap the benefits of immigrants' skills
            The Daily, Tuesday, January 30, 2007. Study: Low-income rates among immigrants entering Canada
            Bulatlat - The Philippines's alternative weekly magazine

            I could post hundreds of such links. But it won't be of much use, because it doesn't matter to most politicians.

            You did not address my question though, if as you say you have Asian professionals who have been doing "menial tasks" for over 15 years, then why do they stay and not return home to follow there careers? or indeed as you stated moved on or tried to move on to the USA.
            I did, Sir. Here it is:

            Sir, there are many reasons why immigrants stay back here, inspite of these hardships. My father wants to go back to India, but he has stayed back to support me while I finish my engineering degree. Other immigrants have other problems. Many people I know had sold off everything they had back home to come to Canada. It is harder for people from poorer countries to immigrate to Canada because of the high currency conversion rate (1 CAD = 37 Rs). Now, even if they do decide to go back, there is nothing to go back to. Others had taken loans from friends and family to raise the $10,000 required by the Canadian High Commission. They cannot go back empty handed. Still others fear going back just because of the shame and humiliation they would face from their relatives.

            It is very easy for people to ask, "If you don't like it here, why don't you go back?" But they do not take all these problems into account.
            Toronto Star article by Rudyard Griffins:

            It is the quintessential Toronto experience. You get into a taxi and in the space of a few minutes your conversation with the driver goes from talking about the weather to sharing your life stories. One cabbie I recently met immigrated to Canada a decade ago. He took up taxi driving because his engineering degree was not recognized by Canadian employers. He and his wife had three children in Canada, but she decided to return to India to live with their extended family. With a bullish real estate market and good job prospects in Mumbai, his home country of India was starting to look more like the land of opportunity and Canada a dead-end.

            My cab ride hit home for me the scale of the challenge we face in terms of attracting and retaining immigrants in a fast-changing global economy.
            Let's face it, Canadians have a mile-wide blind spot when it comes to how we think potential and new immigrants perceive our country. We assume the world is clamouring to come to Canada. Longer-settled Canadians are also quick to believe that our "First World" status gives us the pick of skilled foreign workers. We know there are problems with the accreditation of skills learned and practised in other countries, but we think that our much vaunted health-care system and multiculturalism make Canada an irresistibly attractive place to settle and raise a family.

            Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Canada is the second choice for the majority of new immigrants. Of the 250,000 people who acquired Canadian citizenship last year, only a quarter were skilled or professional workers. Yes, everyone appreciates our health-care system and the diversity of our big cities; yet fully one in three immigrants eventually leaves.

            It's hardly surprising that we are doing a lousy job retaining immigrants when you consider that a third of new citizens don't speak French or English, yet only 20 per cent of federal spending on immigration goes toward language training. It also doesn't help that, while Ontario receives almost half of all newcomers,the province receives only $1,500 per immigrant versus more than $3,000 in Quebec. Behind these numbers lie the reality that the children of low-income immigrants aren't climbing up the economic ladder and, instead, find themselves stuck in the same dead-end jobs as their parents.
            Our collective failure to provide new citizens with opportunities to succeed needs to be set against the new global reality.

            We live in an era typified by cheap global communication and travel. New citizens, compared with previous waves of immigrants, use satellite television, cellphones and charter flights to maintain close, if not seamless, connection with family and friends in their country of origin.

            With one quarter of all immigrants to Canada hailing from China or India — two booming economies where property values are soaring and middle-class jobs are being created hand over fist — many new Canadians, such as the taxi driver I met, are questioning why they should stay when they can't use their hard-won skills. Why not return home and benefit from a fast-growing economy, extended family networks, and familiar culture and language?
            The free flow of information in our globalizing world has also created a two-way conversation. Potential immigrants, especially those with strong technical skills, are learning from contacts in Canada just how dysfunctional our immigration system is and the real hardships they could face here.
            Considering that in five years all of Canada's net labour force growth will come from immigration, what can we do to improve the system?

            We have to understand, deep down, that getting our immigration policy right is as important to our country's long-term well-being as addressing global warming, fighting terrorism or sustaining publicly funded health care.
            To this end, we have to wake up from our narcissistic delusions about what Canada offers newcomers beyond multiculturalism. Immigrants have never had more choice as to where and how they live their lives. If we don't start building a settlement system that really works — the $307 million in new federal funding being a step in the right direction — immigrants will vote with their feet and trigger an exodus that Canada simply can't afford.

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            • #66
              response to gamercube......

              It becomes difficult for countries that have massive influxes of immigrants, at what point do you think that a government should put immigrants before the indiginous population?
              The government could maybe be held accountable for not controlling the numbers of immigrants better thereby making it easier to find positions for those qualified who do come.
              As I said the medical community in Medicine hat is well represented IMO by Asain profesionals, I also know of engineers, teachers and business people in the community, and they are accepted and valued members of the community,I ask again how can that be discriminatory?....the problem as I see it is the sheer numbers who arrive both here and the UK and I am sure the USA has a similar problem.

              What in your opinion gamercube, is a fair percentage representation within a community of professional immigrants? given the number that have arrived.

              As quoted by OoE
              [QUOTE] I would not have come here without a firm job offer and the company pays for the qualification tests.[/QUOTE[/B]

              I am still of the firm believe it is a two way street, research for positions should be done by the person looking for the job, it can be done, it just may take a little longer than you would desire, you have to help yourself, some company's may pay for re qualification, some may not in our case we financed it ourselfs, because it is what we wanted we hold no grudge or ill feeling to the Canadian government for that. My wife now is readily accepted in her professional field, we are very happy here.

              The fact that we are from the UK is neither here nor there, we had to go through the same process, we just apparently handled it in a different way.
              sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

              Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by gamercube View Post
                Indians do not trust their government at all because it is rife with corruption, bribery, nepotism, and inefficiency. We held the Canadian High Commission (CHC) to a much higher standard, because Canada being a first world country, we thought that we could trust it much more than the Indian government.
                Well, at least now you know better.

                Originally posted by gamercube View Post
                They dismiss them out of hand if they are Asian, East European or African. This cannot be just because of an Old Boys Club. There is a feeling of institutional racism against immigrants.
                It is in fact the Old Boys Club with the Club extending to the West European community. The military is the one I'm most familiar with. I could serve as an exchange officer at my current rank with the Brits until I get my British citizenship and then directly transfer over to the British Army without lost of rank and vice versa. There is no way an Indian Officer could do that with the Canadian Army.

                Medically, I think we hold Geneva as the top of the pinnacle. Obviously, we don't share the same view of Bombay. Racist? Perhaps but then again, we know Geneva. We don't know Bombay or Prague or Cairo.

                And while I have no qualms about serving alongside the Indian Army, provided that if we could get Liason Officers who can speak both Indian and Canadian (don't mean the language but the way we do things, for instance, I would stop at the edge of a minefield to wait for engineers. The Indian Army charges through it. Things would get pretty whacked if we don't communicate how we solve certain obstacles). I will never tolerate a Saudi Arabian officer giving orders to my people.

                However, British and American Officers (and to a certain extent, Australian Officers as well) are already integrated into my chains-of-command. There is no hesitation about issuing and receiving orders with them. Does that mean Indian Officers are less capable? Not at all but it does mean that I don't know how they work.

                One last thing. Give my compliments to your father. He is a good man.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  I'm sorry for your father. He was lied to. PEng is damned hard to get. And the fact of the matter is, it's an Old Boys Club. The same with the Professional Engineers, Doctors, University Professors, and even the military. We'll treat you with respect if you're visiting but lo if you want to penetrate our ranks when you have not gone through our testing grounds.
                  What makes you think PEng is hard to get ... it is a bit challenging to get in Quebec (OIQ) because you have to the Law and Ethic test only in French but nevertheless it is really not hard.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    If you reside and lived in Canada or one of the West European or US for your education and training.

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                    • #70
                      gamercube,
                      I was surprised to read about your fathers experience. Is the situation unique to engineers and Doctors? I am in Pharmaceutical Research field. 8 of my colleagues immigrated to Canada 3 years back. While they had a tough first 3-6 months, now all of them are employed in their respective fields. Couple of them have since moved to US (Ultimate aim;) ).
                      Even in my field, its extremely difficult, if not outright impossible for and Indian to get an interview call from a Canadian company while he is in India. Companies simply can not take the uncertainties involved in immigration to offer a job.

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                      • #71
                        I won't deny that racism exist but the idea that because someone submitted hundreds of Resumes and only got interviews on 3 isn't a good example.

                        There are plenty of mid to high level management white guys in the US that have the same experence.

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                        • #72
                          Isn't it the same story in Australia and NZL? Perhaps Parihaka knows better. Even US job market of late is tight, unless you have high-end skills.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by saambaarblast View Post
                            Isn't it the same story in Australia and NZL? Perhaps Parihaka knows better. Even US job market of late is tight, unless you have high-end skills.
                            Depends on the specific job and qualification. We've got 3.4% unemployment at the moment and some specific job skills shortages.
                            Obviously doctors, nurses lawyers and suchlike need local qualifications to top up whatever ones they already have but anyone with a trade, ie engineers builders etc or IT qualifications can pretty much walk right in.
                            A guy from India I do some work with in a production company in town had specific experience of a top-end editing system. He walked straight into a 200k job.
                            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                            Leibniz

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                              but anyone with a trade, ie engineers builders etc or IT qualifications can pretty much walk right in.
                              Hmmm...looks like skilled-tradesmen everywhere are much sought after. There are cases in US where machine-tool operators make as much money or sometimes more money than Plant managers. Additionally, they are less prone to heart-attacks than Plant managers.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by MKristensen908 View Post
                                As I am working now for a company that has operations both in the states and Canada, I was wondering about something my coworkers and I were talking about. Is there "more" racism in the States than Canada?
                                Great thread - nearly everything has happened apart from all out nuclear war..

                                Racism in the States is sort of protected by whichever Amendment deals with free speech is it not? It's also not an offence under the law as it would be in the UK and people otherwise have to get redress through civil law. Not sure about the situation in Canada but I'd guess the background dislike people may have for others not like themselves is pretty similar wherever you may go.

                                The problem with the original question would have to take into account the legal situation surrounding racism & the recording of race hate incidents. So I suppose if it's not classed the same way it would be hard to get comparative statistics?

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