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Thread: India's Navy Vs. China's Navy

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    don't even count those brought from overseas, they were not count as our ability.....so good luck!
    let's see who is here to check out our new boat
    Overseas "boats" can fire/launch missiles and torpedoes. They can sink "home built boats" very well. You just need to be familiar with your "boat", it doesnt matter whether you build it or you import the last screw from Timbuctoo.

    You've just told me that this was a brigade level operation.
    Oh no!!
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    Wind direction patterns that exist here. Any radiation fallout would effect North-west India too. We would'nt want out bread basket area to be radioactive and contaminated, would we?
    A lot better than having our cities nuked.

    I agree it would have been sucidal. But so was sending the 7th Fleet to the Bay of Bengal, an aggressive act against India.
    You have to view these actions from the Cold War prespective. Although India claimed to be non-aligned, but it did get dragged into the Cold War politics, with a leaning towards the Soviet Union.

    But for US, sending the 7th Fleet to the Bay was not a suicidal act although an aggressive act. There's a difference.

    you are free not to.
    Well you are free to inform me otherwise.

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    Overseas "boats" can fire/launch missiles and torpedoes. They can sink "home built boats" very well. You just need to be familiar with your "boat", it doesnt matter whether you build it or you import the last screw from Timbuctoo.
    ================================================== ===

    You missed my point, I never say the "oversea boat" were bad in fact they were often better "boat" than your home made most of the time, otherwise why you buy it? But in war time you never rely on an imported navy, it can never win a war. The capability of building ships were part of your navy's ability at war time. building 300,000+ tons tanks are never joke but real ability. not many countries can do that.

    Why china lost their one of the world best fleets 110 years ago to the Japanese navy because china did not have the ability to produce ships ourselves. When you lost a ship, it's a total; we couldn't even fix it and ordering one from Europe would take years.

    Why country like Germany and Japan can fight a war against the world for that long in WW2? Because they have the capability to keep up the lost, especially Japan lost to the Americans in naval war, not mainly because of their advantage on their ships, but the Americans have far large capability to produce their ships! If the Americans do not have the ability to produce 600 hummvs a month, how can they keep up the work in Iraq? It is not “impossible” your imported weapons would be disabled just because the exporter was a “friend” of your enemy, who knows what they can do.

    that’s why I agreed that china might not win or lose a navy fight right at this moment against India just by the stuff both sides have in a 1 week war, but what if it was a months long, or years long war?

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    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Overseas "boats" can fire/launch missiles and torpedoes. They can sink "home built boats" very well. You just need to be familiar with your "boat", it doesnt matter whether you build it or you import the last screw from Timbuctoo.
    ================================================== ===

    You missed my point, I never say the "oversea boat" were bad in fact they were often better "boat" than your home made most of the time, otherwise why you buy it? But in war time you never rely on an imported navy, it can never win a war. The capability of building ships were part of your navy's ability at war time. building 300,000+ tons tanks are never joke but real ability. not many countries can do that.

    Why china lost their one of the world best fleets 110 years ago to the Japanese navy because china did not have the ability to produce ships ourselves. When you lost a ship, it's a total; we couldn't even fix it and ordering one from Europe would take years.

    Why country like Germany and Japan can fight a war against the world for that long in WW2? Because they have the capability to keep up the lost, especially Japan lost to the Americans in naval war, not mainly because of their advantage on their ships, but the Americans have far large capability to produce their ships! If the Americans do not have the ability to produce 600 hummvs a month, how can they keep up the work in Iraq? It is not “impossible” your imported weapons would be disabled just because the exporter was a “friend” of your enemy, who knows what they can do.

    that’s why I agreed that china might not win or lose a navy fight right at this moment against India just by the stuff both sides have in a 1 week war, but what if it was a months long, or years long war?
    Hi i,m a chinese.i completely and absolutely agree with your point of view.I very happy to see you,my countryman ,in here.
    How about chinese capability of building ship during the war time.In fact i seriously concerned about it,especially refer to the assumptive tawain strait collision.(how can we encounter a possible american and japanese intervention),
    and do we have capability to protect our ship-building site from their air attack.
    I strongly support chinese government to build 2-3 vessels.If they decide to do it,i will dedicate all my deposit to my country.

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    尽忠报国,勇战,爱民

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Overseas "boats" can fire/launch missiles and torpedoes. They can sink "home built boats" very well. You just need to be familiar with your "boat", it doesnt matter whether you build it or you import the last screw from Timbuctoo.
    ================================================== ===

    You missed my point, I never say the "oversea boat" were bad in fact they were often better "boat" than your home made most of the time, otherwise why you buy it? But in war time you never rely on an imported navy, it can never win a war. Why country like Germany and Japan can fight a war against the world for that long in WW2? Because they have the capability to keep up the lost, especially Japan lost to the Americans in naval war, not mainly because of their advantage on their ships, but the Americans have far large capability to produce their ships! If the Americans do not have the ability to produce 600 hummvs a month, how can they keep up the work in Iraq? It is not “impossible” your imported weapons would be disabled just because the exporter was a “friend” of your enemy, who knows what they can do.

    ...

    that’s why I agreed that china might not win or lose a navy fight right at this moment against India just by the stuff both sides have in a 1 week war, but what if it was a months long, or years long war?

    A conflict over Taiwan Strait would be very different from conflict in Iraq.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco Lolan
    A conflict over Taiwan Strait would be very different from conflict in Iraq.
    why you say so?please tell me your reason.what differences between china and iraq.I think chinese navy is too fragile and vulnerable to fight american intervention.

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    Taiwan? I can ensure you, if Taiwan declares independence, it will lose all and they have to come back to China sooner rather than later, militarily rather than peacefully. There will be no peace like they dreamed, even china lost all their economic power, military power or even communist political leadership, the next generation would continues to press the Taiwan until they come back. The situation would be much worse than the Israel and Kashmir. even the shortest range missiles can reach the island with no problem. Too bad for them, Taiwan is too close to the mainland geographically.

    Navy on this issue would play an important role, but limited. No matter how well the Chinese navy will be. China still likely to lose them all if the U.S and Japan decides to intervene, however it can play the part that weakening their “willingness” of entering such a mess war. That’s why china’s goal was not to have one of the world strongest navy, but to have the ability of seriously threaten the safety of well protected naval battle groups (such as carriers or Japan’s naval battle groups). Chinese navy needs the ability for disabling Taiwan’s navy defense and protecting the transports from mainland in the first two weeks of the invasion, and cutting off their water ways either in or out of the island, if Taiwan has such attempt. That’s why china maintains a large submarine force. It will be a very limited war; china would take a possible lost of the navy in consideration.

    it can't be hard to do than building a world strongest and advanced navy. You just need the capibility before such events would happen and keep the production rolling.

    No doubt, if the navy can achieve such goals like identified above, they have well accomplished their purpose on such event, and army force will do the rest to keep any possible "foreign forces" on china's soil ever again.
    ================================================== =
    a little over topic here, i just can't understand why the indians always try to compare their army with the chinese and see us as the threat to them, most of chinese people won't even care what they do or has such thought of attacking them, what is the point man? just like the war in 62, why the hell you have to adopt english's maps and keep pissing chinese off when we don't really want to have such war?

    here is some articles guys, read it, it's made by westerners, neither pro-india and pro-china, hope you could learn something from it and peace alright?

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard...ds/1962war.htm
    Last edited by k19; 01 Feb 05, at 07:21.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Captain,

    You've just told me that this was a brigade level operation.
    Sir
    It would have been a bde level op as the air lift capability of IAF during that time was'nt beyond bde level, including the supporting arms, and rear echlons.
    But I guess such an operation would have been planned in conjunction with Soviet naval support. India really did'nt have the capability to take on a superpower so far away from home on its own. I'm just guessing, as no one really talks about an aborted baby.
    We could have managed a "Falklands op" but not against a superpower with the worlds largest and most powerful navy.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Taiwan? I can ensure you, if Taiwan declares independence, it will lose all and they have to come back to China sooner rather than later, militarily rather than peacefully. There will be no peace like they dreamed, even china lost all their economic power, military power or even communist political leadership, the next generation would continues to press the Taiwan until they come back. The situation would be much worse than the Israel and Kashmir. even the shortest range missiles can reach the island with no problem. Too bad for them, Taiwan is too close to the mainland geographically.

    Navy on this issue would play an important role, but limited. No matter how well the Chinese navy will be. China still likely to lose them all if the U.S and Japan decides to intervene, however it can play the part that weakening their “willingness” of entering such a mess war. That’s why china’s goal was not to have one of the world strongest navy, but to have the ability of seriously threaten the safety of well protected naval battle groups (such as carriers or Japan’s naval battle groups). Chinese navy needs the ability for disabling Taiwan’s navy defense and protecting the transports from mainland in the first two weeks of the invasion, and cutting off their water ways either in or out of the island, if Taiwan has such attempt. That’s why china maintains a large submarine force. It will be a very limited war; china would take a possible lost of the navy in consideration.

    it can't be hard to do than building a world strongest and advanced navy. You just need the capibility before such events would happen and keep the production rolling.

    No doubt, if the navy can achieve such goals like identified below, they have well accomplished their purpose on such event, and army force will do the rest to keep any possible "foreign forces" on china's soil ever again.
    ================================================== =
    a little over topic here, i just can't understand why the indians always try to compare their army with the chinese and see us as the threat to them, most of chinese people won't even care what they do or has such thought of attacking them, what is the point man? just like the war in 62, why the hell you have to adopt english's maps and keep pissing chinese off when we don't really want to have such war?

    here is some articles guys, read it, it's made by westerners, neither pro-india and pro-china, hope you could learn something from it and peace alright?

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard...ds/1962war.htm
    尽忠报国,勇战,爱民。i agree with you,my countryman

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    Sir
    It would have been a bde level op as the air lift capability of IAF during that time was'nt beyond bde level, including the supporting arms, and rear echlons.
    Well, Captain, the clincher for me was that once you told me a field ambulence was getting ready, that automatically told me that this was a bde op. Ambulences are a brigade asset.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    But I guess such an operation would have been planned in conjunction with Soviet naval support. India really did'nt have the capability to take on a superpower so far away from home on its own. I'm just guessing, as no one really talks about an aborted baby.
    To be honest, Captain, I don't know how this could be pulled off. Deigo Garcia ain't a cake walk. Don't know if they still have nukes there but odds are good. Thus, it would take more than a division to even attempt an assualt. That is assuming that you can get past the fighter screen.

    I have to say this. That was some balls.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    We could have managed a "Falklands op" but not against a superpower with the worlds largest and most powerful navy.
    I've been trying some brainstorming on this and hitting a brick wall. Someone must have a thought this possible ... but what were they thinking?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Taiwan? I can ensure you, if Taiwan declares independence, it will lose all and they have to come back to China sooner rather than later, militarily rather than peacefully.
    I don't see that happening in the near future. Taiwan today is as independent as any other country. They are as Chinese as the mainland people, it is just that they prefer to follow a different governing system.
    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    a little over topic here, i just can't understand why the indians always try to compare their army with the chinese and see us as the threat to them, most of chinese people won't even care what they do or has such thought of attacking them, what is the point man? just like the war in 62, why the hell you have to adopt english's maps and keep pissing chinese off when we don't really want to have such war?

    here is some articles guys, read it, it's made by westerners, neither pro-india and pro-china, hope you could learn something from it and peace alright?

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard...ds/1962war.htm
    Your choice of author (Neville Maxwell) is a known for his pro-PRC leanings. His theories are one side of the coin, one has to read further to understand the details on both sides.

    Now to answer your comments.
    indians always try to compare their army with the chinese and see us as the threat to them,
    1. In '62, the border war was not a sudden development but a planned action initiated in 1959.
    2. Thereafter, PRC developed close relations with India's western hostile neighbour, and has made threats of opening a second front whenever hostilities broke out with Pakistan.
    3. PRC has always tried to ristrict India in its growth, for its own regional geopolitical intrests.
    These above points justify the Indian perception of a threat. Indian's do not compare their armed forces to PLA, but try to equate their capabilities with the first world armies like USA, UK and Israel (although a developing nation like India).
    most of chinese people won't even care what they do or has such thought of attacking them, what is the point man?
    The Chinese poeple would not care to threaten India, but that cannot be said about the Communits centre of power in Bejing. After all the Chinese people do not control their govt., their opinions do not matter to the Communit Party.
    just like the war in 62, why the hell you have to adopt english's maps and keep pissing chinese off when we don't really want to have such war?
    The '62 dispute was a diplomatic failure on both sides.
    As per my studies PRC has valid claims in Arunchal's Kameng region, as till 1940 it was administered by Tibetan civil administrators till the British took over to prevent the Communist expansion in future. But in Aksai Chin, there was no administration link to Lhasa, the taxes of the region were collected by the Maharaja of Kashmir.
    If PRC required Aksai Chin for a strategic road to Xinjiang region then the matter could have been settled through diplomatic channels, knowing fully well the dispute of the McMohan Line. By quitly occupying and constructing a road it created a explosive issue.
    Mind you all this was done by PRC inspite of India speaking up for China in the Korean war issue, when no one would take up for China.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    Ambulences are a brigade asset.
    Here they are a Corps asset. Sir, you have an Engr bn to support a Bde, while we have a Engr bn for a div.
    They would have been given whole fd amb bn, considering likely cas rate and distance from home base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
    I've been trying some brainstorming on this and hitting a brick wall. Someone must have a thought this possible ... but what were they thinking?
    Sir, as I keep saying, it would have been a Cold war era thing. Russians wanting to deny the control of the Indian Ocean to the US, who would help them? India.
    Lets just be happy that it was aborted...and not carried through.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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    I don't see that happening in the near future. Taiwan today is as independent as any other country. They are as Chinese as the mainland people; it is just that they prefer to follow a different governing system.
    ================================================== ========

    I have to say you simplified the Taiwan issue a lot. and I DO said it only happens when Taiwan declare independence. You missed some very important points here. Both PRC and ROC’s governments were claim the land of China. PRC’s territory includes Taiwan and ROC’s territory includes mainland as well. The independence of Taiwan is a movement to separate for Taiwan to “give up” their mainland part. It involves the change of the constitutions and a whole lot more than just saying it. It is a reverse story of the Korea and Germany, which, the communist side was stronger than the other side. Mainland does not demand an immediate unite of the Taiwan in this matter but such independent can not be tolerated. The land is belonging to the Chinese people no matter who was the governing body and what kind it is. I have said even the communist party falls in such matter in mainland; it can not change Chinese to take back the land they owned. Or, on the other hand, if the Taiwan has the ability, they have the rights to take the mainland back as well. Mainland china offered a solution, just like Hong Kong, Taiwan could keep their govern system, their social structure and even keep their military, but to become as a special state of china. However, recent two leaders of Taiwan refused such talks and tried to push such movement to separate Taiwan from china. Such action is unconstitutional in Taiwan neither. That’s why the leader now is trying to push a change of constitution. Taiwan’s status should not only be decided by part of the people, but including the mainland people as well.

    The Taiwan government lost their status of a valid Chinese governing body years ago, technically, they were illegal, however, the U.S played a important part of keeping it exist.

    Keeping it as is like right now, could benifit everyone on this issue, but independence does not.

    Just like you can’t say your family will declare as an independent state from India, just because you won your land and write your own law. Or, can you?
    ================================================== =

    1. In '62, the border war was not a sudden development but a planned action initiated in 1959.
    2. Thereafter, PRC developed close relations with India's western hostile neighbour, and has made threats of opening a second front whenever hostilities broke out with Pakistan.
    3. PRC has always tried to ristrict India in its growth, for its own regional geopolitical intrests.
    These above points justify the Indian perception of a threat. Indian's do not compare their armed forces to PLA, but try to equate their capabilities with the first world armies like USA, UK and Israel (although a developing nation like India).
    ================================================== ==
    Still, India’s adopt of McMahan Line that made by English, was the trigger of this whole dispute, how can you base on a un-official land selling contract made by a colonial power and claim something that belong to a so called “government” that never exist anymore? Not even question this so call “government’s” legal status. That’s what India government did since 1954 when you made such change, way before 1959. Could you explain to me why your government does such adoption? For what purpose?

    Continuing push on this issue and even the protection of Dalai Lama in 1959 triggered the anger of the Chinese; that’s probably the single most important event that could really changed china’s attitude, Chinese government was planning to recognize the McMahan Line somehow to settle with India. A possible arm offensive action could be planed for such political sensitive action, the road? Not so much.

    I don’t see any reason why china would limit India’s growth, with out the border dispute part, I can’t think of any reason at that time.

    I hope you were right, but all I can see is bunch India vs. china stuff all round the forum, from air to land and to sea, and those war predictions…

    Although china has a central controlled government, our government’s action is still have to be responsible and reasonable to the people and for people to understand.
    on the other hand, the war was happened 45 years ago, holding such un-friendly feeling can only hold our two nations relation back, not forward.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Still, India’s adopt of McMahan Line that made by English, was the trigger of this whole dispute, how can you base on a un-official land selling contract made by a colonial power
    The borders were inherited by India and Pakistan upon independence from British rule. What would you have liked us to do? Claim our borders as they existed 1000 or 2000 yrs ago?...Be realistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    ... and claim something that belong to a so called “government” that never exist anymore? Not even question this so call “government’s” legal status. That’s what India government did since 1954 when you made such change, way before 1959. Could you explain to me why your government does such adoption? For what purpose?
    Are you refering to the Tibetan govt of pre-1950?
    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Continuing push on this issue and even the protection of Dalai Lama in 1959 triggered the anger of the Chinese; that’s probably the single most important event that could really changed china’s attitude,
    1. PRC could'nt expect compliance w.r.t Dalai Lama as it did not respect Indian trade concerns and ordered the trading posts in Lhasa and Kashgar out.
    2. The Aksai Chin Road.
    These are some of the causes that changed India's attitude towards China in the late '50s.
    In my discussions in the CDF I have lear'nt that Mao was paranoid that India wanted Tibet for India. Which is far from the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    Chinese government was planning to recognize the McMahan Line somehow to settle with India.
    No the only recognition being contemplated was in Arunachal's Kameng sector, because it was of no tactical or strategic use to PRC. India could not loose Aksai Chin, as it would be bowing down to forign invasion, only after 15 yrs of independence.
    Quote Originally Posted by k19
    A possible arm offensive action could be planed for such political sensitive action, the road? Not so much.
    The PLA offensive was not because of the road. But due to the following reasons:-
    - Indian assistance to Tibetan guerillas with the help of CIA.
    - Indian shelter to Dalai Lama.
    - Mao's assumption that India wanted Tibet.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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