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India's Navy Vs. China's Navy

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  • #31
    LOL Figure of Speech? More ships do not a superior navy make. Thats common knowledge which you apparently lack. LOL

    Did you read my post on the make-up of the Navies and my limited notes on capabilities?

    Did you go to a website or a book to compare the ships listed in addition to that?
    Ive listed many resources.

    But no living in ignorance is preferable to knowledge. LOL

    Ive never seen so many people begging to be spoon fed while at the same time making outlandish statements. LOL

    Not to mention dismissing or questioning the facts Ive laid out with proper documentation while you have nothing of substance to offer but your own ignorant, outlandish opinions. LOL

    LOL For crying out-loud get it together. LOL

    Comment


    • #32
      rick sun....get a life....seriously. First I dont know anything about navy, nor do i want to read about it. I just heard that china has a much bigger navy than india. i just wanted to know who would have the advantage in a dog fight between the two countries, in a small skirmish. You can pick what ships meet in the skirmish, without arial support.

      Comment


      • #33
        india having several carriers is a big advantage, if they are equipped with really good aircraft like the new naval sukhoi jets, with good anti ship missiles, they give a big advantage over the chinese navy

        naval warfare since ww2 proved carriers make a navy, as the US showed the japanese

        Comment


        • #34
          "naval warfare since ww2 proved carriers make a navy, as the US showed the japanese
          Yesterday 01:20 PM "

          US strangled Japan with what? Subs (sank 8 Japanese carriers!). PRC preparing to do same.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Franco Lolan
            "naval warfare since ww2 proved carriers make a navy, as the US showed the japanese
            Yesterday 01:20 PM "

            US strangled Japan with what? Subs (sank 8 Japanese carriers!). PRC preparing to do same.
            HOW? With subs and crews who knows squat? The MING sunk just months ago because of stupidity. You think they could turn around that fast? You're dreaming!

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
              HOW? With subs and crews who knows squat? The MING sunk just months ago because of stupidity. You think they could turn around that fast? You're dreaming!
              Can you tell me exactly how it happened? I am curious about it.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Blademaster
                Can you tell me exactly how it happened? I am curious about it.
                The MING was rumoured to be testing a new AIP. Someone forgot to turn off a valve or turn on a valve to prevent the lethal fumes from getting into the air system. The crew died instantly at their posts.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Colonel,

                  Why are you basing it on one disaster?

                  One MING doesn't make every sub bad.

                  Subs have their value as other ships.

                  If someone because of stupidity did or did not do something that killed all, then it is a fault of a drill and not because the sub was bad.

                  http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...china/ming.htm

                  http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/ne...hina-sub01.htm

                  http://taiwansecurity.org/WP/2003/WP-050303.htm

                  http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/articles/other/MingSub.htm

                  http://www.military.com/NewContent/0...050903,00.html

                  All these are interesting, but no where near as to what really happened.
                  Last edited by Ray; 02 Dec 04,, 19:49.


                  "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                  I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                  HAKUNA MATATA

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Some intersting facts about subs

                    Q. What are the differences between classes of submarines?
                    "Hunter killer" submarines (designated SSNs ) are designed to pursue and attack enemy submarines and surface ships using torpedoes. They are also able to carry "cruise" missiles for use against shore-based targets. This type of submarine is used to conduct surveillance and intelligence gathering tasks as well as other types of classified operations. Ballistic missile submarines (designated SSBNs) carry long-range nuclear warhead missiles. They roam the oceans of the globe avoiding contact, to ensure that their anonymity is not compromised. The ability to strike at any time has ensured that deterrent value of SSBNs, or "Bombers", has proved effective in preventing attack.

                    Fleet Submarines (SSN)

                    Ballistic Submarines (SSBN)

                    Q. How big is a submarine?
                    An SSN is approx. 85 x 10 x 10 metres and weighs in the region of 5000 tons when submerged. An SSBN is larger at 150 x 13 x 12 metres and weighs in excess of 15000 tons. A double-decker bus is 10 x 5 x 3 metres and weighs about 4 tons

                    Q. How deep can a submarine go?
                    A submarine can dive to depths in excess of 250 metres. The actual depth is classified.

                    Q. How fast can a submarine go?
                    Modern nuclear submarines can travel at speeds in excess of 25 miles per hour and can maintain this speed indefinitely, so allowing the submarine the ability to go anywhere in the world quickly and quietly.

                    Q. Why are submarines painted black?
                    It helps them to hide. If you were to look down at the sea from above, then it would appear as a dark depth, so it is sensible to paint the submarine a colour that will blend into the background.

                    Q. What weapons are on a submarine?
                    Submarines carry torpedoes, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. Torpedoes are for use against other ships or submarines in time of war. Cruise missiles allow the submarine to target sites that are several hundred miles from the nearest sea. Ballistic missiles can be fired at targets that are many thousands of miles from the sea, and are used as a deterrent, to prevent other countries from waging war .

                    Q. How many missiles and torpedoes are on a submarine?
                    The exact amount of missiles and torpedoes carried is classified, however each submarine will carry sufficient weapons to carry out its task.

                    Q. What types of mission can submarines carry out?
                    Depending upon whether it is a hunter killer or a missile submarine, a submarine is capable of performing many important tasks. Sea Control (denying the ocean to hostile naval forces through ant-submarine and anti-surface warfare) Anti-Submarine Warfare (detecting and destroying hostile submarines) Anti-Surface Warfare (detecting and destroying hostile surface ships) Strategic Deterrence (launching retaliatory strikes against any nation attacking the UK with nuclear weapons) Landing Special Forces (performing covert infiltration of hostile regions by commando forces) Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (listening for hostile electronic communications and information) Carrier Group Support (providing intelligence and undersea protection for aircraft carriers and their support vessels) Cruise Missile Strike Capability (striking ground targets with conventionally armed warheads)

                    Q. How long can you stay underwater?
                    Nuclear Submarines are able to produce their own indefinite supply of air, water and power for driving the submarine forward. It’s only limitation for staying submerged is the amount of food on board, or if they sustain a major defect.

                    Q. How do submarines dive and surface?
                    To dive or submerge the submarine, valves on the top of the very large ballast tanks are opened. This allows the air in the tanks to escape; at the bottom of the tanks are holes that allow the seawater to flood in. As water is heavier than air, the submarine becomes heavier and therefore sinks in a controlled manner. To surface the submarine, the valves on the top of the ballast tanks are shut, high-pressure air is pumped into the tanks and the water is forced out through the holes at the bottom. The tanks fill with air and "float" the submarine to the surface.

                    Q. How many people are there on a submarine?
                    Crew size depends on the class or type of submarine, but a typical submarine would have a crew of around 120 officers and men, which compares to the original crew of the first submarine that had a crew of 8

                    Q. What does it look like through the periscope?
                    Just as is seen in films, there are dashed lines on the eyepiece of a modern periscope, which aid the operative in gauging distances. However, a modern day submarine periscope is much more than just an eye on the outside world. They are more often then not fitted with TV cameras, radio aerials and other electronic gadgets.

                    Q. How do the crew receive medical attention?
                    All submarines carry qualified medical ratings and there are standard operating procedures for any medical emergencies that are beyond their skills. If the submarine is operating in areas that make it unsuitable to evacuate casualties, then they will embark a submarine qualified doctor.

                    Q. What does it feel like to be on a submarine?
                    Although it is difficult for most people to imagine living on a submarine, challenging submarine living conditions actually build strong fellowship among crewmates. The crew is highly motivated and quickly adapts to the conditions. It is a busy life of watches, work and exercise drills. There are four meal times per day with breakfast, lunch, supper and a midnight meal for the watch changeover. Sleep is taken during the off-watch periods, and submariners soon become adept at dropping off to sleep as soon as their heads touch the pillow. Submarines are normally quieter than their surface counterparts, and tend to be more stable due to the depth. The air is cleaner than the outside air and many submariners notice the strong smell of the ocean when the hatches are opened after a long spell at sea.

                    Q. What does the crew do in their spare time?
                    Typically, the submarine day is divided into 4 x 6-hour slots or watches. The majority of the submarine crew is divided into 2 watches, which will spend 6 hours "on-watch" followed by a period of 6 hours "off-watch". This cycle is repeated for the entire time that the submarine is at sea. When "on-watch", the crew will be actively operating their assigned equipment. When “off-watch” the crew will basically eat and sleep. Obviously reading, TV and studying for exams will also take up time. There are also limited facilities for keeping fit, with most submarines carrying an exercise bike, rowing machine and an assortment of free weights.

                    Q. What do you eat?
                    Submariners eat everyday food like you would find on any table in a British home. Imagine shopping for 120 men for 6 months and planning every meal in that time! The fresh fruit, vegetables, and dairy products don't last if the submarines programme takes it away from port for any length of time, but the chefs on board have become masters of creativity and invention. Typical meals would be full cooked or cereals for breakfast; filled rolls, burgers or pizza for lunch, and a chicken, pork or mince dish for supper. Every week there will be a "special" menu.

                    Q. What is sonar?
                    SONAR (Sound Operated aid to Navigation And Ranging) is the system that provides a submarine with its underwater ears and eyes. It is used to detect other ships and submarines, undersea mountains, and can tell the submarine what is happening in the alien environment around it. There are two types of sonar: Active and Passive. When operating in the Active mode, a submarine will send out a pulse of sound into the water and listen for the echo of that sound to return but this is rarely used. Passive Sonar operates by listening for the sounds emitted by other vessels and then carries out analysis of these sounds to determine the characteristics of that vessel. Skilled passive Sonar operators are able to determine the number of propellers fitted, the number of blades on each propeller, and from this, name the individual class of vessel.

                    Q. How far away can you hear other ships?
                    Using sonar it is possible to hear other ships many miles away while underwater. If the other vessel is very noisy then the distance can be in excess of 75 miles. Sonar reception is very dependent on water temperature, other activity in your area and the weather on the surface.

                    Q. What does sonar sound like?
                    Active sonar makes sounds very much like the "pings" you've heard on TV programmes or in films. Submarines don't usually use "active" sonar as this can give away their position. Instead they use "passive" sonar; passive sonar only listens, so no noise is put out into the water.

                    Q. Can you hear whales, dolphins and other sea creatures?
                    Yes. Modern Sonars are designed to enable us to listen for other man made noises such as ships or other submarines; but they are also able to hear the natural sounds of the sea, these are referred to as "Bio".

                    Q. Where do you sleep?
                    On submarines there is an area set-aside as the "bunk space", which contains all the beds or bunks for the crew. Each bunk is approx. 2 metres long by 1 metre wide by 1 metre high, and is often shared by two men who are in different shifts or "watches". The principle is; as each man gets up to go "on watch" he rolls up his own sleeping bag, and rolls out the sleeping bag of the man coming "off watch". During the normal operations of a submarine the sleeping area will only be lit by dim red lights, so as to enable the off watch sailors to sleep. The only man who has his own room, or cabin, is the Commanding Officer.

                    Q. How do you get air on a submarine?
                    A submarine obtains air in two ways: bringing it in from the outside whilst on or just below the surface or making it from seawater. When on the surface or at periscope depth, the submarine will "suck" air in through its "induction" system, which is a mast that is raised and then operates just like a swimmers snorkel. To produce air when underwater, the submarine uses machines that take in seawater and break it down into hydrogen and oxygen (water is H2O). The hydrogen is discharged back into the sea, while the oxygen is used to allow the sailors to breathe.

                    Q. Who does the laundry?
                    As fresh water is at a premium on board a submarine, the use of the washing machines is strictly controlled, and only certain members of the crew are allowed to operate them. Therefore the normal laundry routine is; each day will be for a specific item of clothing e.g. Monday - Overalls Tuesday - Working clothes.

                    Q. How do you communicate with the outside world?
                    Submarines use specialised radios and aerials that can communicate with shore bases and other ships, either directly or via a satellite. The submarine can communicate either by voice or by written word.

                    Q. How do you get letters on a submarine?
                    Letters and parcels addressed to a submarine while it is at sea are forwarded to the next port they are scheduled to visit. If a submarine is on an operational trip then it is sometimes possible for short messages to be sent at specific times; these "familygrams" are about 40 words long and each sailor from the CO to the most junior sailor gets the same amount.

                    Q. Can you get e-mail on a submarine?
                    With today's technological advances, it is possible to send e-mails to the submarine whilst it is alongside in harbour. The Navy is investigating the possibility of expanding the e-mail connection to the submarine at sea, but only if this is possible without compromising submarine security.

                    Q. How do you get rid of waste on a submarine?
                    Submarines store their waste until a suitable time alongside, when they dispose of it as we dispose of any waste in our own homes. If there is no opportunity to dispose of waste ashore, then there are International laws sets down for the disposal of waste at sea. Any waste that cannot be disposed of at sea is stored and removed at the next port visit.

                    Q. How long does the nuclear fuel last?
                    Nuclear fuel has an indefinite life, due to the decay rate of radioactive products. However when fitted to the propulsion system of a submarine, the fuel is renewed at every "re-fit", which is when the submarine receives a major overhaul. Each submarine is expected to receive a re-fit every 5 -7 years.

                    Q. How safe are Nuclear reactors onboard?
                    Safety is a submarine's top priority. The submarine is designed and operated to ensure that the crew, the public, and the environment are protected from the risks of radiation. The ship is designed with "shielding" around the reactor to reduce radiation levels. Radiation levels are very low, so much so that a submariner gets less radiation at sea than a person on a beach receiving radiation from the sun and other natural sources.

                    Q. How does one escape from a sinking submarine?
                    Submarines have two escape routes called "towers”, which can be used to escape from stricken submarines. These towers are located at each end of the submarine so that all personnel have access to one or the other. The sailor gets into the tower dressed in a special escape suit, shuts the door, floods the tower with water, the outer door opens and the sailor floats to the surface. The special escape suit, is an all in one waterproof overall, that has a built in hood that can be inflated to enable the escaping sailor to breath normally on his way to the surface.

                    Q. How do submarines find their way around?
                    Submarine Navigators use normal navigational charts just like any other ship, but probably pay more attention to depth of water than most ships. Submarines have computers that know how fast the submarine is going and in what direction. This computer can also sense when the submarine changes direction. Submarines also have an aerial that can use the Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites.

                    Q. What clothes do you wear when at sea?
                    The crew of any submarine wears the same working clothes as any other sailor in the Navy. An advantage that submariners have, is, that as they are not exposed to the elements, as much as their counterparts in surface ships, then they don't have the need for lots of warm and waterproof gear, which is a good thing as they don't have much space to store it.

                    Q. Why are women not permitted to serve on submarines?
                    Service in submarines is closed to women because of medical concerns for the safety of the foetus and hence its mother. This restriction is purely medical and does not relate to combat effectiveness. The potential risks to the foetus do not arise from hazardous radiation, but from contaminants in the submarine’s atmosphere.

                    Q. Can you feel the waves on a submarine?
                    It depends on the size of the waves on the surface. During normal weather conditions, a submerged submarine will not rock with the motion of the sea. In fact, during moderate storms the submarine remains level at its submerged depth while the waves crash above. In extremely violent storms, like hurricanes or cyclones, wave motion can reach to a depth of 400 feet; though not as violent as the surface, these waves can cause a submarine to roll 5 to 10 degrees either way.

                    Q. Why can a submarine go quicker underwater than on the surface?
                    A submarines "tear drop" shape allows it to slice cleanly through the ocean when there is water surrounding the hull. When a submarine is on the surface the water and air mix to create turbulent conditions that produce an invisible "barrier" that pushes against the submarine, thus slowing it as well as causing it to roll and yaw.


                    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                    HAKUNA MATATA

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ray
                      Colonel,

                      Why are you basing it on one disaster?

                      One MING doesn't make every sub bad.

                      Subs have their value as other ships.

                      If someone because of stupidity did or did not do something that killed all, then it is a fault of a drill and not because the sub was bad.

                      http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...china/ming.htm

                      http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/ne...hina-sub01.htm

                      http://taiwansecurity.org/WP/2003/WP-050303.htm

                      http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/articles/other/MingSub.htm

                      http://www.military.com/NewContent/0...050903,00.html

                      All these are interesting, but no where near as to what really happened.
                      Sir,

                      It is precisely of this disaster that highlights the inadequacy of the current system, including the fact that the sub was lost alot longer without anyone noticing. The issue of this disaster is that it highlights some very major problems facing the PLAN which is a good thing. Now, they know what needs fixing. But to suggest that they could do so within months of this disaster and deviced new operational doctrines based on these fixes ... that is beyond belief.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The above listing of the ships of the Indian Navy and PLAN is a bit out of date. The most important changes have happened to PLAN's sub force:

                        -Many of the Romeos have been retired. All of them will be retired before 2010.
                        -8 new Project 636 Kilo submarines have been ordered from Russia.
                        -PLAN has a new indigenous SSK class called Yuan. It looks like a cross between a Kilo and a Song, though it is larger than either. PLAN claims that it is "better" than a Kilo, and it is widely thought to use AIP.
                        -There is also a new SSN class called Type 93. It is expected to be similar to a Russian Victor III submarine in performance.
                        -Finally, there is a new SSBN class called type 94. It is expected to be similar to a Russian Typhoon in performance. It will carry 16-20 new JL-2 missiles with a range of 8,000 km.


                        Overall, I think that the Chinese navy is superior. It is significantly larger than the IN, and it has a formidable array of missiles. The IN also seems to be a long way from having anything to match the type 52C DDG, type 93 SSN, or the type 94 SSBN, and certainly has not shown the ability to produce such advanced units indigenously. While the IN does have the advantage of aircraft carriers, that is not enough to keep them ahead of the rapidly improving PLAN.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          [QUOTE=Euler]The above listing of the ships of the Indian Navy and PLAN is a bit out of date. The most important changes have happened to PLAN's sub force:

                          Originally posted by Euler
                          -Many of the Romeos have been retired. All of them will be retired before 2010.
                          Thank God.

                          Originally posted by Euler
                          -8 new Project 636 Kilo submarines have been ordered from Russia.
                          None of them are even near operational and the Chinese would have to spend alot more sea time in the ones they have. Otherwise, they're litterally just toys.

                          Originally posted by Euler
                          -PLAN has a new indigenous SSK class called Yuan. It looks like a cross between a Kilo and a Song, though it is larger than either. PLAN claims that it is "better" than a Kilo, and it is widely thought to use AIP.
                          1st of all, the PLAN said nothing. Those claims are mostly from Chinese nationalists who have too much time on their hands.

                          2nd, until the Chinese build a new NATO code name YUAN (we don't know what the Chinese call it), no one knows how successful the design is. One thing I can say that any 2nd YUAN would be alot different than the 1st.

                          No, there is absolutely no evidence that the Chinese had even acquire AIP technology. There is a rumour that the MING crew died from testing an AIP system but that has not been confirmed.

                          Originally posted by Euler
                          -There is also a new SSN class called Type 93. It is expected to be similar to a Russian Victor III submarine in performance.
                          Another wishful thinking on the part of Chinese nationalists. It may be. It may be not on similar VICTOR III performance. However, seatime is most certainly lacking to give any crew any good performance rating.

                          Originally posted by Euler
                          -Finally, there is a new SSBN class called type 94. It is expected to be similar to a Russian Typhoon in performance. It will carry 16-20 new JL-2 missiles with a range of 8,000 km.
                          1) Bird shots only show 12 tubes.
                          2) JL-2 has not been even been tested in a sea launch.

                          Originally posted by Euler
                          Overall, I think that the Chinese navy is superior. It is significantly larger than the IN, and it has a formidable array of missiles. The IN also seems to be a long way from having anything to match the type 52C DDG, type 93 SSN, or the type 94 SSBN, and certainly has not shown the ability to produce such advanced units indigenously. While the IN does have the advantage of aircraft carriers, that is not enough to keep them ahead of the rapidly improving PLAN.
                          No sea legs wheras the InN has substantially more sea time.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                            No sea legs wheras the InN has substantially more sea time.
                            Would you rate the IN as a blue water navy?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Blademaster
                              Would you rate the IN as a blue water navy?
                              Only in the Indian Ocean.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                WHen you say "blue water navy" do u mean efficeint navy? How come only in the Indian ocean, is it cause they are only good at defense?

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