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History's Greatest Military Defeats

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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Yes, but those types of defeats usually end the war. Kiev was near the beginning and the defeat can be argued as the rotten door Hitler talked about flying to pieces as it was kicked in. I am not sure of any other group in history other than perhaps Rome that could take that kind of loss, bounce back and win. By the time of the winter counter attack outside Moscow the USSR lost 2% of its prewar population just in battle losses and just in just 6 months. That doesn't include the population that never evacuated or the industry that got trapped.
    To return to a very old post, Z I still shudder at the thought of a society that can sustain this kind of monstrous losses and fight on to victory. Their methods are repugnant but the results inspired awe.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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    • held in high regard by winston churchill would be the battle of El alamein. won the war in africa. Had Hitler diverted some of the armies and supplies dedicated to Barbarossa, Britain may have lost the Suez canal and become cut off from her empire.

      Of importance to NZ would be the battle of Rangiriri in 1863 spelling the end of the Maori kingdom as a rival to British colonialism in the north island.
      Or perhaps Orakau. But by then the war had already been decided
      Last edited by eshcol; 24 Jan 10,, 00:59.

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      • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
        To return to a very old post, Z I still shudder at the thought of a society that can sustain this kind of monstrous losses and fight on to victory. Their methods are repugnant but the results inspired awe.
        Absolutely, they should not have been able to do it. With the possible exception of Rome vs Hannibal no one else ever has.

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        • WWII China.

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          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            WWII China.
            China only provided men, the Soviets provided men and most of their own implements of war.

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            • Third Battle of panipat(1761). Afgani Abdali defeated the marathas as also ran away and thus left an India without any strong central power. The result was british conquest of India without much revolt.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Panipat_(1761)

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              • Singapore, 1942.

                British troops surrendering.
                On the 15th of February 1942, about 100,000 British and Australian troops surrendered to Japanese forces on the island fortress of Singapore. The Japanese, despite being massively outnumbered, took good advantage of some appallingly bad command decisions on the part of British generals, and the fact that their planes were superior to those of the RAF, to invade and conquer the island in little more than a week. A combination of good intelligence and quick decision-making from the Japanese high command forced the surrender of the British forces despite many ordinary troops fighting valiantly.

                There is no doubt that this surrender stands as one of the British military's worst ever humiliations.

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                • The Battle of Tsushima: The IJN sunk or captured the whole Russian Fleet, most dramatic victory/defeat of the battleship era

                  The Battle of Helgoland Blight in WWI, when Beatty whomped the High Seas Fleet and sent them running back to their base with a few less ships. (Jutland was a bigger battle but less decisive, though it was a strategic victory for the British)

                  Perhaps the biggest naval defeat in WWII
                  The Battle of Leyte Gulf in WWII where the Imperial Japanese Navy was virtually wiped out by the USN.
                  Last edited by USSWisconsin; 23 Mar 11,, 06:44.
                  sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                  If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                  • Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
                    The Battle of Tsushima: The IJN sunk or captured the whole Russian Fleet, most dramatic victory/defeat of the battleship era

                    The Battle of Helgoland Blight in WWI, when Beatty whomped the High Seas Fleet and sent them running back to their base with a few less ships. (Jutland was a bigger battle but less decisive, though it was a strategic victory for the British)

                    Perhaps the biggest naval defeat in WWII
                    The Battle of Leyte Gulf in WWII where the Imperial Japanese Navy was virtually wiped out by the USN.

                    Not so sure, Japan had 2 chance sin WWII to steal a march on the US in the number of carriers in particular fleet carriers- Pearl Harbor and Midway and she flubbed both. When the war started the US and Japan had carrier parity, but the US already had 5 fleet carriers and numerous smaller carriers under construction.

                    If Japan had won Midway and not lost any carriers she would have been up to 8 vs a US 3 by the end of 42 (Hornet, Wasp and Saratoga) which would ahve given her carrier parity through 43. Instead she lost the battle dropped to 4 carriers vs 6 US dropping to 5 by the end of the year (-2 Wasp, Hornet, + Essex). 43 got back for the Japanese as the US added 6 fleet carriers (Bunker Hill, Wasp, Lexington, Hornet, Yorktown), while Japan added no new fleet carriers. In 44 the US added 7 fleet carriers and Japan only added 5 for a 2 total of 17 US to 5 Japanese.

                    If Japan had won Midway 44 would have seen numbers (not counting other losses) of 19 US carriers vs 13 Japanese fleet carriers going into 45. Instead she went in to 45 with 2 fleet carriers neither operational after US air and sub attacks in 44 sank 6 carriers.

                    making this maulign worse was the loss of the pilots. The Kido Butai had problaby the highest individual skill level of any air froce in WWII. The training program was so grueling that the next class to replace the losses at Midway did not see service until the Great mariannas Turkey Shoot where the inexperiance, lack of team work and inferior airframes meant the pilots incredible skill (for noobs) didn't matter at all.

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                    • The Battle of Sluys

                      The first naval battle of the Hundred Years War (1337-1453). The French king, Philip VI, was preparing to invade England from Flanders, but his fleet was surprised at dawn at Sluys. The English attacked from the east with the rising sun blinding the French crossbowmen, while illuminating their own ships perfectly for the English archers. Conservative estimates put the French losses at about 190 ships and 16-18,000 men, including both admirals. Such was the scale of the victory that the English joked the fish were speaking French because of the number of bodies in the sea. It was one of the most crushing victories in naval history, and ensured that the rest of the war would be fought on land.

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                      • A picture of the Battle of Sluys from Jean Froissart's Chronicles, published in the 15th century

                        The Battle of Sluys: Fought June 24th 1340, at the beginning of the “100 years” war (1337-1360), a French force of 213 ships was defeated by an inferior force of 160-180 English ships (some sources state the two sides had nearly equal forces) at sunrise off the coast of France (Sluys or 'Ecluse), in the 14th century this was an important roadstead for France, and could easily hold this large fleet (it has since filled in with silt from the river Eede and is no longer an important anchorage). King Edward III, of England, brought his fleet to Blankenberge on 6/23/1340 and anchored, the French, under Hugues Quieret and Nicolas Behuchet, refused to come out, intending to occupy the roadstead and protect the road to Bruge. The French chained their ships together in a medieval tactic which precluded any maneuvering. Edward entered the French anchorage at dawn and maneuvered to put the sun behind him, and keep the wind on a favorable bearing. The English archers were able to fire far more quickly than the Genoese crossbowman defending the French fleet, additionally the English had clear targets while the French had the sun in their eyes. The battle devolved into boarding and hand to hand fighting and most of the French ships were captured, the English lost two ships, French dead and wounded added up to nearly 20,000, the English casualties were much lighter. The French claim that the Edward's Flemish allies joined the battle that evening, though Edward's account does not mention this. Edward himself was wounded, by some accounts by the French commander Nicolas Behuchet, who was KIA. The destruction of the French fleet eliminated the threat of a French invasion, and the remainder of the 100 years war was fought on land.
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                        Last edited by USSWisconsin; 18 Apr 11,, 01:17.
                        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                        • If Japan had won Midway and not lost any carriers she would have been up to 8 vs a US 3 by the end of 42 (Hornet, Wasp and Saratoga) which would ahve given her carrier parity through 43. Instead she lost the battle dropped to 4 carriers vs 6 US dropping to 5 by the end of the year (-2 Wasp, Hornet, + Essex). 43 got back for the Japanese as the US added 6 fleet carriers (Bunker Hill, Wasp, Lexington, Hornet, Yorktown), while Japan added no new fleet carriers. In 44 the US added 7 fleet carriers and Japan only added 5 for a 2 total of 17 US to 5 Japanese.
                          Had the Japanese not lost those carriers, the Guadalcanal campaign would have been quite different, if even attempted in '42.

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                          • Manzikert without a doubt had the longest lasting most profound effect on western history.
                            Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.”
                            ~Ronald Reagan

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                            • It was the civil war that lasted until Alexius' ascent on the throne that ruined the empire.Failure to eject the settled Turks after their recovery also helped to make the situation permanent.

                              Battles of Nicopolis,second Kossovopolje and Varna ensured that there will be an Ottoman presence in Europe.
                              Yarmuk or Qadisiyah take my vote,although the idea of the worst defeats is just like saying the reverse of greatest victories.There are so many of them.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                              • Originally posted by Roosveltrepub View Post
                                Manzikert without a doubt had the longest lasting most profound effect on western history.
                                Gibbon, and then the popular Norwich, have perpetuated this story. In itself, Manzikert was not a world shaking defeat.
                                It was the civil war that lasted until Alexius' ascent on the throne that ruined the empire.Failure to eject the settled Turks after their recovery also helped to make the situation permanent
                                This is correct. The civil war allowed the Turks a few years to slowly move across and begin to settle Anatolia. Alexius's (and his successors) failure to expel them is the catastrophe.

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