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Thread: History's Greatest Military Defeats

  1. #166
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    So? 2 million French and Belgians surrendered to the Germans in WWII
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  2. #167
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    So? 2 million French and Belgians surrendered to the Germans in WWII
    He saw this and thought "Aha!".

    You had to be the grumpy old fella and burst the bubble for him, eh? At least you spared him from thesaurus lecture.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  3. #168
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Apparently something like 6.2 million Japanese soldiers & sailors were taken prisoner by the allies in 1945. Ever so slightly larger than 90,000.


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  4. #169
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    So, has anyone mentioned Manzikert in 1071? After centuries of Byzantine dominance of the Eastern Mediterranean this battle set the scene for what would become the Ottoman Empire and the rise of Mohamed-ism as a dominant force in Africa and Anatolia.

  5. #170
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You're an idiot.

    We were outclassed, outnumbered, and outpositioned in Europe up until the Reagan years. Hell, we were even outnuked. No one disputes that. Potential is not tanks on the ground. Factories making Mustangs ain't going to turn around to build tanks overnight. The T-64 outclass every tank in the NATO arsenal at the time.
    Question Colonel, while not seeking to disagree with your statement that NATO was outnumbered and out positioned, is it possible to argue that you were at least not entirely outclassed? The Warsaw Pact nations certainly had some material and strategic advantages as mentioned but would it be fair to argue that NATO counties also had certain advantages in terms of training, communications, EW/ECCM, general air warfare technology and other areas, plus the albeit dubious advantage the defenders position? I'm not suggesting that the WARSAW Pact could not have advanced into Western Europe, just that even prior to Regan NATO would have bled them if they tried? Just asking as an amateur.

  6. #171
    Officer of Engineers
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    We were two entirely different systems. They rehearse their battles. We train for contingencies. What this means that at the brigade and battalion level, we had a hell of a lot more initiatives but if they read us right, then they could be bring appropriate forces to bear without worrying about how we will react.

    I will use the reserves as an example. For them, they have 7 men on the attack while keeping 1 in reserve. We keep 4 men upfront while keeping 1 back. This means for 100 men, they have 88 men on the attack while keeping 12 in reserve. We will have 75 men up front while keeping 25 in reserve.

    If they rehearse the battle correctly, then, their 88 men will swamp our 75. If we can hold them and bring forth our reserves, then, they are at a disadvantage having inferior re-enforcements.

    Thing is, during the period in question, given their numbers and at times, technological superiority, and we assume that their officers are just as good as ours and their training on par with us, we can't see them not swarming us.

  7. #172
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    Lei Feng Protege
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    col yu,

    Thing is, during the period in question, given their numbers and at times, technological superiority, and we assume that their officers are just as good as ours and their training on par with us, we can't see them not swarming us.
    yeah, the expected life of entire divisions were measured in days if not hours.

    i forget how long it would have taken for NATO to start throwing nukes. C2 would break down shortly thereafter with hundreds of tac nukes flying followed by thousands of ICBMs.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  8. #173
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Was there a time when WP had air superiority?
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

  9. #174
    Senior Contributor Stitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    We were two entirely different systems. They rehearse their battles. We train for contingencies. What this means that at the brigade and battalion level, we had a hell of a lot more initiatives but if they read us right, then they could be bring appropriate forces to bear without worrying about how we will react.

    I will use the reserves as an example. For them, they have 7 men on the attack while keeping 1 in reserve. We keep 4 men upfront while keeping 1 back. This means for 100 men, they have 88 men on the attack while keeping 12 in reserve. We will have 75 men up front while keeping 25 in reserve.

    If they rehearse the battle correctly, then, their 88 men will swamp our 75. If we can hold them and bring forth our reserves, then, they are at a disadvantage having inferior re-enforcements.

    Thing is, during the period in question, given their numbers and at times, technological superiority, and we assume that their officers are just as good as ours and their training on par with us, we can't see them not swarming us.
    Isn't this essentially what happened in Korea in 1951 vis-a-vis the Chinese?
    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

  10. #175
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch View Post
    Isn't this essentially what happened in Korea in 1951 vis-a-vis the Chinese?
    Vistula-Oder Operation is more likely.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  11. #176
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    We were two entirely different systems. They rehearse their battles. We train for contingencies. What this means that at the brigade and battalion level, we had a hell of a lot more initiatives but if they read us right, then they could be bring appropriate forces to bear without worrying about how we will react.

    If they rehearse the battle correctly, then, their 88 men will swamp our 75. If we can hold them and bring forth our reserves, then, they are at a disadvantage having inferior re-enforcements.

    Thing is, during the period in question, given their numbers and at times, technological superiority, and we assume that their officers are just as good as ours and their training on par with us, we can't see them not swarming us.
    I get the point about their numbers and the 'presumed' capability of their officers but what about their NCO's. I thought their military system relied heavily on the Officer Class with little or no development of their NCO's. By the way does anyone have any idea what the impact the 'Political Officers' would have had on the overall effectiveness of the Warsaw Pact combat Units? (Setting aside Tom Clancy for the moment. )

  12. #177
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    I get the point about their numbers and the 'presumed' capability of their officers but what about their NCO's. I thought their military system relied heavily on the Officer Class with little or no development of their NCO's. By the way does anyone have any idea what the impact the 'Political Officers' would have had on the overall effectiveness of the Warsaw Pact combat Units? (Setting aside Tom Clancy for the moment. )
    None.The days of the comissars were gone by 1942-43.As for the junior officers,these were at least young and mostly enthusiastic.
    The main issue with the lack of NCO's was that it made military service a miserable experience for many recruits.
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

  13. #178
    Senior Contributor Doktor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    None.The days of the comissars were gone by 1942-43.As for the junior officers,these were at least young and mostly enthusiastic.
    The main issue with the lack of NCO's was that it made military service a miserable experience for many recruits.
    ^^^ But thought young soldiers how to lick a$$ and to learn ways to disobey orders without getting punished (too hard) if caught.

    Almost forgot. In JNA, one couldn't go beyond Major if they didn't pass some totally required stuff like Marxism and similar.
    No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

    To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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