Originally posted by M21Sniper
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Could Germany have won WWII
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Originally posted by BlademasterOOE, how come the Germans were not able to kill everyone in Stalingrad and then move on?
I mean like reducing the city's infrastructre into rubles with no way of supporting the population to feed themselves. Why was it impossible for the Germans to shut off the route into the city?
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Here is my reason Germany could have won WW2. They were months away from going nuclear.They already had a viable delivery system; the V2 rocket. If (#1) Hitler had convinced Japan to wait 6 more months befor attacking pearl harber, the U.S. would have entered the war later. If (#2) Germany had gone into Russia months earlier,as origionally planned, they would have done far more damage before the winter. Stalingrad would have been taken. The eastern front would have been at the caucuses. Even more russians would have perished. It would have taken Russia years to regroup and mount an offensive. Especially without the hardware from the U.S. Germany would then be better able to defend western Europe and buy time until the bomb was developed. With the A bomb Germany would have England, Europe, Asia, and Africa by the short hairs. With a longer range missile, the americas would soon be in peril. Roosevelt did not want to send manpower and resources Europe, as much as he HAD to. The longer Germany lenthened the war, the greater the chance of success.Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.
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The Germans were much closer to having the bomb than people liked to believe. Given the holocaust, there is no doubt the Germans would have used the bomb extensively. The german scientist who escaped to america were invaluable for america to develope the bomb. One of the "races" to Berlin was to get as much technology and scientist as possible. Given the options, Most of the German scientist found their way to western Europe. Therefore The United States had the luxury the russians didn't. One of the reasons Russia went hell bent for Berlin was so they could get a piece of the pie before all of the technology and scientist escaped to the west. Those German scientist are the only ones that knew how close Germany was to having the bomb.Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.
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German atomic program
Originally posted by boneheadThe Germans were much closer to having the bomb than people liked to believe. Given the holocaust, there is no doubt the Germans would have used the bomb extensively. The german scientist who escaped to america were invaluable for america to develope the bomb. One of the "races" to Berlin was to get as much technology and scientist as possible. Given the options, Most of the German scientist found their way to western Europe. Therefore The United States had the luxury the russians didn't. One of the reasons Russia went hell bent for Berlin was so they could get a piece of the pie before all of the technology and scientist escaped to the west. Those German scientist are the only ones that knew how close Germany was to having the bomb.
Many of the best scientists in Germany (such as Heisenberg) were spirited away from Germany to prevent the Russians from getting their hands on them. Remember - the US had the bomb, and everyone now knew it was possible. So every country still intact at that point (sans Germany and Japan) was going to push to get it. The Allies knew Stalin was almost as big a monster as Hitler (although they'd not been saying that to their people), and didn't want him to have it any more than they wanted Hitler or Japan to have it. By the way, there is some speculation that Japan was actually close to having a bomb, but there is not much to support the claim.
Read: "Heisenberg's War" by Thomas Powers, and "Hitler's Uranium Club" by Jeremy Bernstein.
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Originally posted by boneheadHere is my reason Germany could have won WW2. They were months away from going nuclear.They already had a viable delivery system; the V2 rocket.
Originally posted by boneheadIf (#1) Hitler had convinced Japan to wait 6 more months befor attacking pearl harber, the U.S. would have entered the war later.
Originally posted by boneheadIf (#2) Germany had gone into Russia months earlier,as origionally planned, they would have done far more damage before the winter. Stalingrad would have been taken. The eastern front would have been at the caucuses. Even more russians would have perished. It would have taken Russia years to regroup and mount an offensive.
Originally posted by boneheadEspecially without the hardware from the U.S. Germany would then be better able to defend western Europe and buy time until the bomb was developed. With the A bomb Germany would have England, Europe, Asia, and Africa by the short hairs. With a longer range missile, the americas would soon be in peril. Roosevelt did not want to send manpower and resources Europe, as much as he HAD to. The longer Germany lenthened the war, the greater the chance of success.
I contend that the historical record suggests Roosevelt did want to enter the war, but was restrained by Congress and some popular sentiment. Thankfully, he did everything he could to support the Allies before Pearl Harbor, and then got his chance afterwards.
I keep thinking Germany was book-ended by the US A-bomb. I don't think lengthening the war would have helped. Hitler's only chance was to win quickly in Russia, to neutralize Britain, and make peace. Under any scenario the US would have had the bomb in 1945 and thereby dominated any military conflicts until someone else got one.
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IMHO,
You guys are forgetting that all those dates are completely irrelevant if we are talking about alternative history.
Germans started to improve their tanks when they encountered T-34 on a field. I mean putting bigger guns and armor on them.
If Germany had attacked USSR later - Tigers would have appeared later, and there would be much more T-34 (because in 1941 it was already in production) against puny Pz-2 and 3's.
Germany would probably direct more resources to develop better bombers and u-boats then. And maybe more resources for nuclear bomb project.
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History is written by the winners of wars.. not the losers. If we believed everything that comes out of George Bushes mouth We would all think everything in Iraq and Afghanistan is just hunky dory.
Pearl harbor was Roosevelt ironclad reason for going to war. Not a single american doubted his intentions after December 7 1941. To jump into the war any earlier would have been political suicide. Roosevelt also knew that Germany was the greater enemy. In early 1941 Germany had a strangle hold on Europe. England, still smarting from dunkirk was in a desperate struggle with the German airforce that could have gone either way. The English air force's tenacity and dedication, as well as the english channel, gave England the time it needed to rebuild an effective force. Russia was nothing more that a question mark. By late 1941 Germany was having early succeses in Russia. The Germans had all but won, then blundered the war away.
Allied leaders knew the German industrial capacity needed to be brought to its knees and the only way to do that was by bombing. early bombing raid losses over Europe were catastrohpically high in terms of planes lost. Only the united states could have absorbed thoe losses. England surely could not. With fewer factories at the end of the war germany had to do a lot of picking and choosing over what to build. It also took a lot longer to get sufficient numbers of new and improved weapons to the battlefield. a few hundred more tiger tanks would have made the difference in many of the eastern front battles. The germans had many other weapons developed but could not produce because its factories were in ruin. If the United states had gone to war much later it may have been to late. If germany had a few hundered more operational me-262 fighters in 1943 allied bombers would have been toast. Given time Germany would have developed and used the bomb along with a myriad of other new weapons at its disposal.
If the war had dragged on to say 1948 The united states would have been the only country to counter Germany. (assuming all is well on the russian front.) Would the United states want to go it alone or return to its isolationist policies of the past and negotiate a peace treaty?
In the fog of war do not discount luck.Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.
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Originally posted by lurkerIMHO,
You guys are forgetting that all those dates are completely irrelevant if we are talking about alternative history.
Germans started to improve their tanks when they encountered T-34 on a field. I mean putting bigger guns and armor on them.
If Germany had attacked USSR later - Tigers would have appeared later, and there would be much more T-34 (because in 1941 it was already in production) against puny Pz-2 and 3's.
Germany would probably direct more resources to develop better bombers and u-boats then. And maybe more resources for nuclear bomb project.
Hitler's big gamble was to attack the Soviets 1941 and achieve operational supremacy. Instead, he lost 900,000 of his best soldiers over the winter of 41. Game over.
If Hitler had attacked in early May, it might have been a different outcome. If he had a better logistical system, it might have been a different outcome. If he had gone for Moscow in August, it might have been a different outcome. If he had passed on Moscow in October, and gone into a defensive posture for the winter at Smolensk, he might have had a good chance in 42.
Hitler did none of those things and squandered his irreplaceable veterans. The best he could hope for after 41 was a difficult stalemate, but Stalingrad eliminated that chance. A lot of the bad decisions in 41 were due to his generals, not him. In 42, the bad decisions were primarily Hitler's.
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Originally posted by BrokenHitler's big gamble was to attack the Soviets 1941 and achieve operational supremacy. Instead, he lost 900,000 of his best soldiers over the winter of 41. Game over.
If Hitler had attacked in early May, it might have been a different outcome. If he had a better logistical system, it might have been a different outcome. If he had gone for Moscow in August, it might have been a different outcome. If he had passed on Moscow in October, and gone into a defensive posture for the winter at Smolensk, he might have had a good chance in 42.
Keep in mind that with beginning of big rains around 1st of September roads there virtually disappeared, and that stuff continued until around beginning of November.
As for the winter... for example around Leningrad with winter's averages of -9C it hit -40C couple times.
Interestingly noone predicted such a cold winter, even Russian long term weather forecats were talking about a very mild one.
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