What makes a Muslim radical?

[dalem]

I'm not really interested in what makes radical Muslims radical - every religion and belief has its nutcases. What I'm interested in is what makes non-radical Muslims moral cowards.

-dale

[astralis]

dalem,

I'm not really interested in what makes radical Muslims radical - every religion and belief has its nutcases. What I'm interested in is what makes non-radical Muslims moral cowards.

-dale

most people in the world, muslims and non-muslims alike, are most primarily interested in getting by. how else to explain why the vast majority of germans, japanese, italians- and even a large portion of occupied europe and china- went blithely along with fascist rule?

[dalem]

dalem,



most people in the world, muslims and non-muslims alike, are most primarily interested in getting by. how else to explain why the vast majority of germans, japanese, italians- and even a large portion of occupied europe and china- went blithely along with fascist rule?

Yep, if I were alive then I'd've been asking the same question then, of them. But right now it's Muslims that are burning, murdering, kidnapping, warring, whining, and sawing living heads off to push their group agenda.

-dale

[glyn]

[QUOTE=astralis;307567]glyn,



yet the control shown by these mullahs have not existed all throughout islamic history. i daresay the middle east was islamic back in the 1950s, but during that time, girls rollerblading in short-skirts a la american style were the rage in restaurants from baghdad to lebanon. even the pan-arab (and prior to that, nationalist) philosophies of nasser et al were not exactly very friendly to "islamic values"- the original founder of the modern jihad movement, qutb, was flung into egyptian jail to rot.

This is indeed the case. Why Islam should have become so anti-modern, anti-democratic (and anti-just about everything else) in such a short time is a mystery to me. Beirut was the Paris of the east not all that long ago, and it was civilised and welcoming during my 2 visits from Cyprus. It had a sizeable Christian community and the religions seemed to get along without friction. Any visitor could walk about quite safely.

[Asim Aquil]

What makes a Muslim radical? A Thirteenth Century mindset, listening to bloody-minded religious figures, a belief in his moral superiority, a belief in the inferiority of infidels and women, and a chauvanism and bigotry that is supported by NOTHING except a literal, uncritical reading of his holy book.

Suppose that did. But with the advent of the internet, satelite tv, access to books, various levels of education... What continues to make them radical?

A lot of moderate Muslims are insisting that the Quran is not what makes someone radical but no one's listening. We are dealing with some vicious cycles here. What makes a westerner radical against Muslims?

[troung]

What makes a westerner radical against Muslims?

What happened before 9-11, 9-11 itself, what has happened since 9-11 and so forth. That is a very easy question to answer.

[Asim Aquil]

What happened before 9-11, 9-11 itself, what has happened since 9-11 and so forth. That is a very easy question to answer.

Not so easy for me. I can point out many things, but then somehow I'd be a Muslim justifying and supporting 9/11. So I have to shut up about it.

[Asim Aquil]

What happened before 9-11, 9-11 itself, what has happened since 9-11 and so forth. That is a very easy question to answer.

Trust me, we can trace back the "what happened before..." debate back to the Crusades, the Spread of Islam and the Birth of Christ.

Islam and the west have been fighting for that long.

Addressing what's happening now and how to fix the now can actually help beat this vicious cycle.

[astralis]

A lot of moderate Muslims are insisting that the Quran is not what makes someone radical but no one's listening. We are dealing with some vicious cycles here. What makes a westerner radical against Muslims?

as dale has mentioned, because there has not been a severe backlash in the muslim world against those extremists. until there is a clear and distinct divide that demonstrates once and for all that moderate muslims reject the tribalism and the savagery displayed by the radicals, then it is all too easy for westerners- rightly or wrongly- to lump muslims into one big pile.

[dalem]

as dale has mentioned, because there has not been a severe backlash in the muslim world against those extremists. until there is a clear and distinct divide that demonstrates once and for all that moderate muslims reject the tribalism and the savagery displayed by the radicals, then it is all too easy for westerners- rightly or wrongly- to lump muslims into one big pile.

I think it's very correct for me to do that lumping. I am an intelligent, social, educated, well-read, minorly-traveled man and I now no longer trust a billion people on this planet.

I don't distrust the Irish based on the IRA, or the Russians based on the USSR, or the Japanese or the Germans based on WWII, or the Italians based on the Mafia, or the Mexicans based on immigration, as groups.

But I sure as sh!t don't trust Muslims now. They haven't earned it as a group (though some apparently remarkable individuals sure have) and when I see a Muslim (and there are plenty here in the Twin Cities) I assume he or she is up to no good.

Now some will freak out and claim my bigotry is stupid and offensive and that it's MY responsibility to stave off such feelings, and I say (and have said) "f*ck that" - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'm naming it Daffy until I'm shown a different set of feathers.

And remember, I'm a REASONABLE MAN. Any of y'all who may be Muslim, please think about how you're now perceived by UNREASONABLE MEN. If you have something to contribute against the supposedly-teeny minority in your mosques and whatnot, then now is the time.

-dale

[Asim Aquil]

as dale has mentioned, because there has not been a severe backlash in the muslim world against those extremists. until there is a clear and distinct divide that demonstrates once and for all that moderate muslims reject the tribalism and the savagery displayed by the radicals, then it is all too easy for westerners- rightly or wrongly- to lump muslims into one big pile.

That IS a very redundant complaint but is just not true any more.

I'll speak for my Muslim nation of Pakistan. We've seen Mullahs in all wakes of life for decades now. When Pakistan was formed its creation was opposed by the Mullahs who wanted to stay with India and take over it. Our pro-Secularism founding father, Mohammad Ali Jinnah had it our way and formed Pakistan.

Ever since it's been a battle. Mullahs though did not control any real power in governance, influenced a lot of voters through their speeches and thus influenced the politicians. Some Islamic laws were introduced, Moderates got most of them to be just symbolic and not be applicable since the civil courts were kept as such to override Shariah courts. What happened before that? War was brought upon us by the Soviets by invading Afghanistan.

Only till recent, Mullahs got 13% seats in the government when the much trumpeted war on terror, started to look like War on Islam and it's going on just next door. Still Moderates kept the right wing (mullahs) to 13% and the centerists hold the majority with a 3 party coalition. Also some 35% are held by the left wing.

A lot of terms like Backlash are used. You fail to define what you intend to see? When you say that I fear you are expecting me to hold a gun and get out on the streets of Karachi and shoot anyone with a big beard.

I wouldn't be any good at even shooting an Al Qaeda operative. Never used a gun in my life! (well except those guns at some fairs).

But if you are expecting that whether or not we are engaging Mullahs when they say something ridiculous like "Islam should enslave the non-Muslims or women should be forced into the hijab", then you are spot on. Some of the more active Muslim country boards are Pakistani boards. Any Mullah's extremist remarks are challenged by someone or the other.

Heck read the bad press, the Hisbah (morality) bill the Mullahs of the 13% seats have introduced. Some people voted the Mullahs in over the whole war on Islam perception and it really looks like that when in our countries and abroad Muslims are somehow put into one trouble after another.

Now the next elections are in 2007. We are hoping to get these forces out of power. The election campaigns are on and we are trying to make sure that these people are not voted for. It's tough but thats how moderates fight. We can't throw our nations into civil war and chaos by picking up the gun and forgetting that we have jobs to go to in the morning.

I can't see how it would be easy for the westerners to lump us together if they only knew all that was going on. What makes a Muslim radical is just what makes a westerner radical...

[Asim Aquil]

But I sure as sh!t don't trust Muslims now. They haven't earned it as a group (though some apparently remarkable individuals sure have) and when I see a Muslim (and there are plenty here in the Twin Cities) I assume he or she is up to no good.

That is so wrong... But you are not alone. I've seen that in America. Similar thinking people got the 6 Imams arrested for praying while they waited for the plane in MN.

Now some will freak out and claim my bigotry is stupid and offensive and that it's MY responsibility to stave off such feelings, and I say (and have said) "f*ck that" - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'm naming it Daffy until I'm shown a different set of feathers.

Innocent till proven guilty. You have to find those feathers, and spot them yourself. I saw this one shirt worn by an American Muslim "My name alone can cause the security alert level to change".

And remember, I'm a REASONABLE MAN. Any of y'all who may be Muslim, please think about how you're now perceived by UNREASONABLE MEN. If you have something to contribute against the supposedly-teeny minority in your mosques and whatnot, then now is the time.

See that's the thing. You don't know how Muslims respond to this. To us, you are more scarier right now, so we have to do something about you. You might just even kill us randomly!

So we have to then abandon all our reforming Islam plans and focus all our energy on reforming you, or protecting ourselves from you.

That's the world a Muslim lives in today.

[glyn]

So we have to then abandon all our reforming Islam plans and focus all our energy on reforming you, or protecting ourselves from you.


It would be nice to see some evidence of reformation from the moslems. There are over 2 million of them in the UK. The first words they use against us are 'racist' and 'islam-haters'. Gee thanks, and it is an absolute joy to have such professional ingrates choosing to live among us!. They have run away from the hell-holes they were in, and yet they seem to want to turn a first world country into a 3rd world country. We have a monarchy and they object to this. Are you telling me that they didn't know that before they fled here? Many are on benefit, yet they pay their Islamic taxes 'to help the ummah'. Many have made no effort to integrate with the host nation. They still wear 3rd world clothing, fail to learn the language, and bundle their women up in ridiculous all-enveloping tribal garb. But of course, it's the host nations fault, right? The bombings in the UK were approved of by a majority of the moslems here, according to a survey.
If it were up to me, immigration from moslem countries would immediately stop. Anyone who has been here for a decade and who still hasn't bothered to learn my language would be deported, as would those found guilty of any crime. Before you leap to denounce my actions, let me tell you those who are of benefit to this country can remain and be treated like the rest of the population. This was a traditionally tolerant accommodating country, but the massive influx of intolerant moslems into a small country in such a short period of time, and all their attendant difficulties have disabused us of that idea. Enough is more than enough.

That's the world a Muslim lives in today.

And thats the world I have to live in.

[Trooth]

I firmly believe it is a small minority of preachers who are charismatic and powerful enough to brainwash those of their followers who are vulnerable into perpetrating terrible hatred. I do not believe all muslims are like that.

However i am forced to ask - if the radicals can be so persuasive, why cannot the moderate preachers? Why are the moderates not brandiishing the word of Mohammed with the same style, sincerity and conviction that the radicals are managing?

Unlike Dalem i don't fear and suspect every Muslim. But i wonder - are the radicals trying. If they are trying, why is the message of hate so appealing?

[Confed999]

I firmly believe it is a small minority of preachers who are charismatic and powerful enough to brainwash those of their followers who are vulnerable into perpetrating terrible hatred. I do not believe all muslims are like that.

However i am forced to ask - if the radicals can be so persuasive, why cannot the moderate preachers? Why are the moderates not brandiishing the word of Mohammed with the same style, sincerity and conviction that the radicals are managing?

Even the "moderates" freak out at cartoons. Cartoons...