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War on Terror - Saving Lives?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Julie
    I think this is an appropriate thread to post this since it involves "lives."

    The most ironic issue in the Second Presidential Debate that I found was the issue of support on embryonic stem research. Bush said that he "did not agree with killing lives to save lives." Go figure.

    That's the best thing I've yet read on this thread. Oooh I rhyme!

    We are foolish to think we an stamp out terrorism. All we will suceed in doing is increasing the frequency of ourselves being targeting. That area of the world has never been at peace. Who's version of the word of god should we support?

    Isn't it safe to say that America is is pretty darn nationalistic too?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Fonnicker
      That area of the world has never been at peace.
      So nobody should even try?
      Originally posted by Fonnicker
      Isn't it safe to say that America is is pretty darn nationalistic too?
      People are nationalistic, not America. I know very few nationalists.
      No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
      I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
      even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
      He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Confed999
        So nobody should even try?

        People are nationalistic, not America. I know very few nationalists.

        Nationalism in the sense of the word, "my county right or wrong" is the problem in my opinion. That has been a profound problem for the US in times of war. There are far too many people that think protesting a war is acting against the soldiers fighting it. This is simply not true. You can support our troops and hope for their safe return and at the same time protest our government for sending them there in the first place.

        It is not just our right to question or government and our leaders...it is our responsibility as Americans to do so.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Fonnicker
          That's the best thing I've yet read on this thread. Oooh I rhyme!

          We are foolish to think we an stamp out terrorism. All we will suceed in doing is increasing the frequency of ourselves being targeting. That area of the world has never been at peace. Who's version of the word of god should we support?

          Isn't it safe to say that America is is pretty darn nationalistic too?

          I think we can stamp out terrorism, and I like that wording you use better than "the war on terrorism" because I feel it can not be won by war. The directive that a free society will defeat terrorism is true to a point, however, the society will not grasp the freedom effect during the bombing and murdering of their people, thereby forcing them to choose, in their eyes, between the lesser of two evils.

          The US may have the most dominant military in the world, but the post-war effect plans, seem to always fall very short, showing the lack of respect, for many humanitarian concerns. The post-war issue is the problem right now in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the American people at home.

          If you look at it in a simple way, we have played into the hands of the "terrorists," if you want to call them that. The day of 9/11, the US economy and innocent people were the target.....and they still are today. "These group of people" which Bush calls them, are leading our country into an abundant deficit, that our grandchildren will still be having to deal with in their lifetime, and our allies buy tickets to watch our one-man circus act.

          Bush thinks he is such a smart person, when in fact he is as dumb as dirt. I have never in my life been so ashamed, and unproud to be an American, as I am this very day.

          Comment


          • #35
            Terrorism and terrorists have been defeated, in fact, they lost far more than they won, in historic contexts. The most famous example is the terror group the Assasins who went up against the Superpower of the Day, the Mongols. Very few survived Mongol vengence.

            The Americans had blood vengence before. During World War II, the Imperial Japanese Naval Marines was killed almost to the last man. The IJN was sunk almost to the last ship. The IJA never saw home again.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Julie
              Bush thinks he is such a smart person, when in fact he is as dumb as dirt. I have never in my life been so ashamed, and unproud to be an American, as I am this very day.
              That is a terrible thing to say. Please don't ever let the likes of Bush and the neocon fanatics make you ashamed to be an American. It is they who should be ashamed. Not you.

              America has a good heart. The disease of the Bush regime will pass. And America will be great again.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                Terrorism and terrorists have been defeated, in fact, they lost far more than they won, in historic contexts. The most famous example is the terror group the Assasins who went up against the Superpower of the Day, the Mongols. Very few survived Mongol vengence.

                The Americans had blood vengence before. During World War II, the Imperial Japanese Naval Marines was killed almost to the last man. The IJN was sunk almost to the last ship. The IJA never saw home again.

                I "just think" that if a human being goes to the extreme of murder, and/or murdering himself, he has a real inner-soul problem. We need to address the underlying problem, not just the act itself. I am sure 9/11 was not to "ethnic cleanse" the US, no more so, than we are going to negotiate with terrorists.

                Any indicted murderer in the US goes through an analysis by a psychologist to attempt to find out the underlying problem, if any, of the act committed before proceeding in a court of law. I'm not implying terrorists are psychotic, although that is a conclusion of some, just that there is an obvious underlying dilemma there that should be addressed in some form.

                Since 9/11, the only investigation performed was why US didn't have knowledge of the planned attack. I think Americans, as well as others, deserve to know what was the basis for the attack. Don't we have intelligence on the ground by now to find these sort of things out?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Electric Hermit
                  That is a terrible thing to say. Please don't ever let the likes of Bush and the neocon fanatics make you ashamed to be an American. It is they who should be ashamed. Not you.

                  America has a good heart. The disease of the Bush regime will pass. And America will be great again.

                  I really hope you are right on this one. Here comes my "opinion" - The problem I see is that Americans are blinded by the war so much that they don't see Bush for who he is. Aside from his actions against Iraq and terrorism, what has he done that is so deeply respectful? It's fine that the President is steadfast in his fight. He should be. It doesn't mean that another president (Kerry for example) won't be as equally effective in the "stamping out of terrorism". Maybe another president can continue the fight, while at the same time opening up dialogue and fostering genuine support for our actions rather than the support of countries fearful of getting on our bad side.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Fonnicker
                    The problem I see is that Americans are blinded by the war so much that they don't see Bush for who he is.
                    Take out "Bush" and replace it with "Kerry" and you have another viable view point. I still can't believe the Dems picked Kerry.
                    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Confed999
                      Take out "Bush" and replace it with "Kerry" and you have another viable view point. I still can't believe the Dems picked Kerry.

                      Me either! I have never once indicated that I am pleased with the choice. I'm not even a democrat! I can't see the benefit of joining either party to be honest. All I know is what I know of Bush. And quite frankly I'll be proud to run on the "anyone but Bush" platform in a heartbeat.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Julie
                        Since 9/11, the only investigation performed was why US didn't have knowledge of the planned attack. I think Americans, as well as others, deserve to know what was the basis for the attack. Don't we have intelligence on the ground by now to find these sort of things out?
                        You touch here on what I think has been the most troubling aspect of the aftermath of 9/11. America appears to have lost the ability to look critically at itself. It is as if history started on that fateful day. The denial of any wider context to the attacks is almost pathological, it seems. And the banal simplisticisms of the Idiot Bush provide the ideal crutch for those who would prefer not to think too deeply about wider context. For fear of what they might find?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Fonnicker
                          And quite frankly I'll be proud to run on the "anyone but Bush" platform in a heartbeat.
                          You should look into Kerry's past a bit then. I'm not proud of either, but I'm not going to vote on an "anyone but" platform, as I still remember the Carter administration. I f the libertarians had been on the right side of the war in Iraq, I would have voted for them as usual.
                          No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                          I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                          even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                          He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Electric Hermit
                            You touch here on what I think has been the most troubling aspect of the aftermath of 9/11. America appears to have lost the ability to look critically at itself. It is as if history started on that fateful day. The denial of any wider context to the attacks is almost pathological, it seems. And the banal simplisticisms of the Idiot Bush provide the ideal crutch for those who would prefer not to think too deeply about wider context. For fear of what they might find?
                            To me, the most important issues about 9/11 have been brushed aside, and now the only mention of 9/11 is when it is an excuse for our actions. As far as fear goes, we can fear no more of our findings, than we feared that day.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Julie
                              Since 9/11, the only investigation performed was why US didn't have knowledge of the planned attack. I think Americans, as well as others, deserve to know what was the basis for the attack. Don't we have intelligence on the ground by now to find these sort of things out?
                              I'm at a disadvantage here. I was a soldier. Whatever desire I had to understand them ended the second the 1st plane crashed into the World Trade Towers. At that point on, my only interest is to kill them. I don't care about their motivations. I don't care about their dreams. I only care about their demise.

                              Afterwards, when the war is over, and the much vaunted and much needed self-examination would occur, then I will examine what happenned and why they did the things they did and why I did the things I did. Until then, I know all I need to know. They want to kill me ... but I will kill them.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Electric Hermit
                                You touch here on what I think has been the most troubling aspect of the aftermath of 9/11. America appears to have lost the ability to look critically at itself. It is as if history started on that fateful day. The denial of any wider context to the attacks is almost pathological, it seems. And the banal simplisticisms of the Idiot Bush provide the ideal crutch for those who would prefer not to think too deeply about wider context. For fear of what they might find?

                                It must be very difficult in this world to raise your children to value it's national and ethnic cultural history when the primary export from America is our own culture. Here we have our american ideologies plastered all over our movies, our literature, our television and our music and we distribute it like propaganda aimed at americanising the world by targeting it's youth. So, we wonder why we are met with some hostility from cultures who don't want to be americanised.

                                If you've ever traveled abroad, and hopefully some of our friends from other countries can attest to this, American's are rude and demanding. It all stems from our insane customer service philosophy that the "customer" is always right.

                                I guess the point I am making is that the responsibility lies at our own feet, not just that of our government and the american military machine that insists on policing the world.

                                Comment

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