I'm bored: Moral Question

[dalem]

Okay, I'm bored at work, so here's an attempt to entertain myself:

Tomorrow it is announced that a vaccine for all known strains of HIV has been found. The key and irreplacable ingredient is derived from the centrifuged liver matter of chimpanzees. This ingredient cannot be produced artificially.

Discuss.

-dale

[bonehead]

Use the vaccine only for those who innocently contracted the disease, ie blood transfusions, accidental needle pokes, ER people etc. The rest of the bastards can rot as HIV is not a product of incidental contact and at this point these people KNEW the risk and gambled with their lives anyway.

[THL]

Use the vaccine only for those who innocently contracted the disease, ie blood transfusions, accidental needle pokes, ER people etc. The rest of the bastards can rot as HIV is not a product of incidental contact and at this point these people KNEW the risk and gambled with their lives anyway.

I only want to add to let the other people who innocently contracted the disease such as children born to mothers with HIV and people who thought they were in a monogamous relationship only to find out that the person they were monogamous with were not so mongamous.

Other than that, all the "sex workers", clients to the sex workers, and people who are out there knowingly and willingly participating in unsafe behaviors - they can all deal with it. They brought it on themselves.

[Dave]

Ok

Since vaccines are only effective before contracting a virus, then anyone who doesn't have it, and can afford to buy the vaccine, should get it.

d
a
v
e

[Ironduke]

They'd probably find a way to grow chimpanzee livers from stem cells or something.

[Parihaka]

Properly managed, we have the potential to wipe the disease out completely. It makes no sense to limit the number of people that are vaccinated. Target the at risk individuals first, then role it out as appropriate.

[Bluesman]

Crash program for nationalized chimp ranching. They're primates, and using them for harvested liver matter is problematic. But it would simply be unethical and immoral to let humans die when a means to save their lives exists. So, get on with it even if it's pretty dam' ugly.

As for limiting it to folks that got the disease 'innocently', and witholding the vaccine while it is still rare from individuals that engaged in high-rsk behaviors ('they wuz askin' fer it'), that is immoral, illegal and impractical, and will not pass any medical ethics test, legal challenge or even common-sense thought process.

Vaccinate as many people as fast as possible, of course. By the lights of some folks here, some 'injustices' will no doubt occur in the distribution and timing, but it simply does not and should not work that way: 'Right this way, you poor dear; screw you, you pervert.'

[astralis]

completely agree with bluesman.

that chimp ranch idea is a hoot, though (sorry, bad pun, but couldn't resist).

[bonehead]

Crash program for nationalized chimp ranching. They're primates, and using them for harvested liver matter is problematic. But it would simply be unethical and immoral to let humans die when a means to save their lives exists. So, get on with it even if it's pretty dam' ugly.

As for limiting it to folks that got the disease 'innocently', and witholding the vaccine while it is still rare from individuals that engaged in high-rsk behaviors ('they wuz askin' fer it'), that is immoral, illegal and impractical, and will not pass any medical ethics test, legal challenge or even common-sense thought process.

Vaccinate as many people as fast as possible, of course. By the lights of some folks here, some 'injustices' will no doubt occur in the distribution and timing, but it simply does not and should not work that way: 'Right this way, you poor dear; screw you, you pervert.'

Medical ethics. Now thats a hoot.

Lets not forget that those who engage in such behavior get much more than HIV. Hepatitis and a myriad of other diseases swim in the same stream as HIV so a cure for HIV does not equal life in this matter. Those that contracted HIV innocently most likely do NOT have the other diseases so are basically the only ones that would truely benefit from the vaccine. The rest are simply choosing to die from something else as a direct result of their behavior.

I hope Dale is having fun.

[Bluesman]

Medical ethics. Now thats a hoot.

What's funny about medical ethics?

Lets not forget that those who engage in such behavior get much more than HIV. Hepatitis and a myriad of other diseases swim in the same stream as HIV so a cure for HIV does not equal life in this matter. Those that contracted HIV innocently most likely do NOT have the other diseases so are basically the only ones that would truely benefit from the vaccine. The rest are simply choosing to die from something else as a direct result of their behavior.

By seeking treatment, it seems to me they're choosing NOT to die at all. And until you're living like a fitness monk yourself, don't come looking for any treatment that is directly related to anything you may have done to provoke your condition (which is going to be almost ALL of 'em). Otherwise, you're a hypocrite. Because philosophically, there would be no difference, merely a degree or two apart.

As to the point you're trying unsuccessfully to make re: other diseases associated with HIV-infected high-riskers, surely you wouldn't presume to tell any responsible care provider that such a person has no claim to getting cured of ONE disease if he had other stuff wrong with him, too, would you?

Well, maybe YOU would, but I bet you wouldn't get very far with that line of 'reasoning'.

I hope Dale is having fun.

We agree on that part.

[ZFBoxcar]

Bonehead, ignoring my total disagreement with you on this for a minute, we are, as Dave said, discussing a vaccine, not a cure. I agree with Bluesman, start chimp farming, although maybe try to make the conditions a little better than we do for cows, chickens, etc.

[THL]

Since vaccines are only effective before contracting a virus, then anyone who doesn't have it, and can afford to buy the vaccine, should get it.

d
a
v
e

Yeah, Okay. I guess I was looking at this as more along the lines of a cure and not a preventive vaccine.

As a vaccine, anyone who could afford it (or who has insurance willing to cover it) should be able to get it.

I only have a problem with the general public paying to cure people who bring these things on themselves (I'm still a democrat :) ). We all know how it is contracted and we should have the personal responsibility to try and prevent contracting it ourselves since a $6 box of little rubber hats which are available at any drug store are pretty good at that. Now, of course, if someone wants to pay for the cure themselves, then I am all good with that.

[Jay]

Everyone should get it, if they can afford it.

[bonehead]

What's funny about medical ethics?



By seeking treatment, it seems to me they're choosing NOT to die at all. And until you're living like a fitness monk yourself, don't come looking for any treatment that is directly related to anything you may have done to provoke your condition (which is going to be almost ALL of 'em). Otherwise, you're a hypocrite. Because philosophically, there would be no difference, merely a degree or two apart.

As to the point you're trying unsuccessfully to make re: other diseases associated with HIV-infected high-riskers, surely you wouldn't presume to tell any responsible care provider that such a person has no claim to getting cured of ONE disease if he had other stuff wrong with him, too, would you?

Well, maybe YOU would, but I bet you wouldn't get very far with that line of 'reasoning'.



We agree on that part.

I know human nature all too well. As soon as someone shouts "we have a cure for HIV", people will automatically assume all bets are off and will forgo all inhibitions to said risky behavior and they will soon be dying of something else, and the next outbreak will in all likelyhood be far worse than the HIV problem we have today. The facts are that we already have a cure for HIV and that is by choosing not to engage in risky behaviors. Any vacine is nothing but a pipedream unless the risky behaviors are put to an end. Otherwise these people are only trading one death for another, If they really do choose life they would not be engaging in such behaviors to start with. We are talking about those who fully knew they were risking their lives each and every time they shared a needle and bedded their partners. These people want nothing more than a get out of jail free card yet have done absolutely nothing to deserve it.

Bluesman. You have been in the military so you must know about triage. There is no point in treating a broken leg when the brain is oozing out of the skull. Resources could be spent better elswhere. so if the person is too far down the road of death we should cut our losses and move on to someone who truly wants to live. Secondly, as a conservative who does not want universal healthcare so everyone is covered, it seemes rather odd to me you can say you are OK with the poor to not have healthcare simply because they can not afford it, yet you are arguing that the dredges of our society (by behavior) are entitled to a limited resource.

Medical ehics are the robes of morality worn by doctors when it suits them and serves their purpose. In reality ethics are more often ultimately decided by lawyers.

[bonehead]

Bonehead, ignoring my total disagreement with you on this for a minute, we are, as Dave said, discussing a vaccine, not a cure. I agree with Bluesman, start chimp farming, although maybe try to make the conditions a little better than we do for cows, chickens, etc.

Someone has to play devils advocate;)

Chimp farming very well may be the ticket, but if they are farmed to be killed, why should chimps be better treated than the cows, chickens, etc.