'Go Big,' 'Go Long' and 'Go Home'

[astralis]

i think it's possible to combine "go big" and "go long". go big in the short-term, put some small semblance of order. at the very least clean out sadr city.

then withdraw most of the troops and put the remainder in the north as a giant RRF.

zraver,

Show me a single instance where a limited war has stopped an insurgency.

the US destroyed the VC after the tet offensive.

[zraver]

the US destroyed the VC after the tet offensive.

Mor elike the VC impale dthemselve son the Americna sword, but still Tet was a GO BIG BATTLE. We went hardcore and won the feild.

[dave angel]

Armchair,

Show me a single instance where a limited war has stopped an insurgency. The closest you wil get is the British in Malaya, and that involved a very brutal forced relocation program to isolate the communist from their base. Limited war does not work against an insurgency, total war does.

you mean apart from Kenya, Oman, Northern Ireland, Oman again, Belize, Sierra Leone, Eastern Europe in WWII, Macedonia.

versus, Iraq, Vietnam and the Palestinian Occupied Territories?

yes, i think you might be onto something.







crack.

[leib10]

Eastern Europe? I don't think that it was (from the German POV) a very limited war. They were doing all they could to combat partisans, and what they did wasn't very "limited" either. It was rather brutal.

[-{SpoonmaN}-]

the US destroyed the VC after the tet offensive.

Mor elike the VC impale dthemselve son the Americna sword, but still Tet was a GO BIG BATTLE. We went hardcore and won the feild.

Yeah and all anyone cared about was the fact that the VC and PAVN could pull off the offensive in the first place, when you'd been going 'big' for three years. This is an insurgency, the more people you kill, the more people you recruit into the insurgency. Unfortunately it's a tricky business fighting an insurgency, there's no simple or easy solution, but the comparison of British Empire tactics in Malaya and US tactics in Vietnam demonstrates amply that the heavy handed aproach of Vietnam only served to alienate the people that the US was trying to help, while the Australian tactics of fighting the VC with guerila warfare meant that we decreased their activity just as much, while using less ammo, killing far fewer civilians and thus maintaining far more credibility with the populace and all the while taking a lower casualty rate. So you see, the obvious solution of firepower isn't always the optimal one.

[Asim Aquil]

Trust me on this, Go home.

Iraqis would hate on you for creating a mess and leaving. But only a few love you there for being there anyway. Fewer still would love you tomorrow, and even fewer the day after.

Go home. Seriously... Go home.

[zraver]

Dave Angel,

show me a victory not a conflcit that just dragged on and on until both sides were exhausted.

Spoonman,

Veitnam was not a total war, it was jsut the raw aplication of fire power with non of the other steps afterwards to build stability. The nazi's had the same problem they were willing to do the crushing, but not the rebuilding.

leibstandarte10,

The gemran anti-partisan efforts used 2nd rate forgien formations (SS volunteeers) and POW parole formations. Even in france vs the FFI who had upwars of 100,000 men the gemrans neve rhad more than 16,000 men assinged to security duties.

you guys are fixating on the initial use of force, that is the least important factor in winning the peace. it is only to shock every one into stopping fighting and then you win the peace and that means taking those miltiary aged men and putitng them to work at a fair wage on projects where they get to se ehow they are contributing to thier and thier countries future prosperity.

You have to make peace more valauble to the former combatants than war.

[-{SpoonmaN}-]

You're missing the point of the foreigners and the religious based terrorists, who dont really give a crap how bad things get in Iraq, so long as the MNF is forced to pull out.

[troung]

Beatign an insurgency is doable, but brutal. Outlaw guns and weapons, shot on site type outlawing, Kill Sadr and when his people riot in the streets gun them down with apaches, use reprisals (they are legal if proportionate). Make the cost of coming after US troops so high they simply wont do it.

So then the people who don't like us and have guns, don't feel safe and have guns or just have a gun to show off get the choice between giving it to us or using it on us. That might just scare more into shooting at America. Happened with the Moros.

Make preaching radical islam or hate a crime punishable by death and then enforce it.

And then have the fence sitters join in by the tens of thousands to start shooting. Try and ban the free speech of the clerical class (who can depending on the cleric get quite political or radical) and see what happens.

show me a victory not a conflcit that just dragged on and on until both sides were exhausted.

Mozambique.

[zraver]

Mozambique was a 15 year civil war that dragged on and on and on. 900,000 dead, 5million displaced and a country riddled with landmines and you think thats a COIN victory?

So then the people who don't like us and have guns, don't feel safe and have guns or just have a gun to show off get the choice between giving it to us or using it on us. That might just scare more into shooting at America. Happened with the Moros.

Again, it was not the aplication of force on the level I am talking about, the philipines doe snot posses enough armed force to crush a small bug let alone an insurgency, and any action was not followed through with any way to provide hope and win the peace.

And then have the fence sitters join in by the tens of thousands to start shooting. Try and ban the free speech of the clerical class (who can depending on the cleric get quite political or radical) and see what happens.

Do you know how many ideological revolts have been putdown with the sword or gun, true zealots die early and then the survivors remember othe rmore pressing things to do, specially if your offering jobs and hope.

[Confed999]

Withdraw... Nobody cares about the WOT enough to really fight it. Let the radicals have the ME, Africa, and parts of Asia. Maybe round about the time Europe falls to this Islamic Empire, the people of the world will be willing to repeat history...

[Asim Aquil]

Withdraw... Nobody cares about the WOT enough to really fight it. Let the radicals have the ME, Africa, and parts of Asia. Maybe round about the time Europe falls to this Islamic Empire, the people of the world will be willing to repeat history...

There are just TWO Islamic theocracies out there. How can you lose hope on all Muslims just by those. Even amongst those two countries, one\'s the EXTREMIST Sunni country the others the extremist Shia country. Even amongst monarchies they really aren\'t theocratic. Not all monarchies are even tyrannical, just look at the UAE and mainly Dubai. They keep their local population happy.

Many nations are ready to join a modern world. You\'d never get there by war. War would make us all shoot for the weapons and take us away from modernization. The best way to defeat terrorism is... Drum roll... Talk them out of it. Basically meaning show them a better path. There are many Muslims who conform their religion with modernity. Surely there must be a plan to convince the terrorists/extremists of that.

Withdraw. Thats the best option but don\'t say paranoid things like the Islamic Empire is out to get you. That only translates into \"Their Empire thinks we\'re going to take over them. So they\'d try to take over us, so we should try to take over them!\" Messy?

Radicals aren\'t going to have the ME just by you pulling out your troops. They are by your troops being there. As Musharraf said while doing the deal with the Taliban (and it kinda applies to the Iraqis as well), \"This is now becoming a people\'s movement\". And with force the only way you can TRULY ensure that no radical pops up is by killing EVERYONE. Are you ready to kill every Muslim out there? No? Then try talking. Talk to people, tell them why being nice is so nice. Be convincing.

Its not that bad.

[Officer of Engineers]

The best way to defeat terrorism is... Drum roll... Talk them out of it.

You've got to be sh!tting me! If Nassar, Sadat, and Hussien couldn't do it, what makes you think Bush can?

[troung]

Again, it was not the aplication of force on the level I am talking about, the philipines doe snot posses enough armed force to crush a small bug let alone an insurgency, and any action was not followed through with any way to provide hope and win the peace.

With law and order in bad shape, militias running around and terrorists, kidnap gangs and so forth do you actually think that people will hand over their guns, their last line of defense, without a fight?

Do you know how many ideological revolts have been putdown with the sword or gun, true zealots die early and then the survivors remember othe rmore pressing things to do, specially if your offering jobs and hope.

We ain't offering hope disarming them so they can no longer protect themselves and attacking their religous/political leaders will just "prove" that we are there to do bad things.

And furthermore that cuts into the democracy stuff we are spreading. The fun boys got elected.

As Musharraf said while doing the deal with the Taliban (and it kinda applies to the Iraqis as well), \"This is now becoming a people\'s movement\". And with force the only way you can TRULY ensure that no radical pops up is by killing EVERYONE. Are you ready to kill every Muslim out there? No? Then try talking. Talk to people, tell them why being nice is so nice. Be convincing.

Mush is a terrorist supporter.

The best way to defeat terrorism is... Drum roll... Talk them out of it.

You must be joking or sniffing glue.

[gunnut]

The best way to defeat terrorism is... Drum roll... Talk them out of it.

Do you understand that there are people in the world who don't see things your way?

Have you ever been bullied in school before? You ever try to talk the bully into giving your lunch money back or stop bothering you?

You can no more talk these people out of terrorism than we can talk you out of being a muslim.