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"Hindus do not have a place in Kazakhstan"

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  • #16
    ISKCON is peace loving

    I would like to write a few facts about the incident as conveyed by some devotees and the saintly leaders in the place.
    Last edited by nitaidas; 23 Nov 06,, 16:52.

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    • #17
      ISKCON is peace loving

      This is regarding the unbearable voilation of human rights in the state of Kazakhstan.

      " Innocent citizens are deprived of their homes in an apparent show of discrimination. The local court has passed an illegal ordinance, enforcing the governments repossession and destruction of land legally purchased by ISKCON and privatised through government approved means.People are losing their homes, their livelihood, their possesions, and their dignity. This is an embarrasing and pronounced violation of human and religious rights.

      The following are important facts which clearly show the brutal voilation of basic human rights.

      1. Law abiding citizens are deprived of their homes and thrown to the street. All of them have lawfully acquired the right of ownership for their plots of land they have paid all the taxes and membership charges.
      2. The Governor of the district accuses the owners that they never had their property privatized. However the members of the community repeatedly applied to the Governer for his permission to prepare the acts of ownership for their cottages and plots but he repeatedly refused. Without his sanction for privatization one cannot proceed with the necessary documentation for the cottages.
      3. The devotees' houses are located on the territory of a Consumers Cooperative. There are 120 members of this Cooperative. However, the claims are brought only against members of this religious society. In each and every claim the connection of the defendants to the Religious Organization Society for Krishna Consciousness has been illustrated. This is a direct and flagrant violation of human rights and freedoms which are guaranteed by the Constitution of Kazakhstan.
      4. Confiscation of property without compensation is possible only in a criminal case.This is a civil, not a criminal case.
      5. According to the law, citizens whose property is confiscated are given at least five days to prepare for execution of the court decision. In this case we have another transgression of the law as they were given less than one day.

      This is the time of severe cold and innocent people, some old and some with children and newly born children are deprived of their shelter with their clothes and luggage destroyed."

      One should never forget that he is not born with a cross or a danda or whatever. Everybody is born human. What, if someone is born in a certain place, he is born with horns or holy cross? Why should foolish attack innocent?

      To eloborate further, Religion means how to know god and not barbarism. Attacking innocent is against basic human brotherhood.

      If the local Government has some apprehensions, they can be clarified by discussions. But purposefully harassing a peace loving community in a country which advocates itself to be secular is not good. If the reasons are valid, then that can be other thing, but if the officials are doing it just to carry on with their misunderstandings about the devotees, it is not dignity at the least.

      Jesus or Mohammed or Lord never said that one attack innocent. They taught love for all. Even prophet mohammed ordered defending the people only on attack by foreigners. Who said that one should attack the innocent. Imagine a housewife who knows nothing but faithfully serving her husband and spending remaining time in developing spiritual life. What gain one gets by hurting her or killing her and her children? And this is going on and the message is for everyone.

      Regarding ISKCON, It is a peace loving soceity which advocates everyone is a son of god. The devotees don't even take meat, what to speak of hurting others.

      I request whoever is viewing this message to consider these things. Please air your protest against the human animalism in general wherever it may be. Let us pledge not become one of the those rascals who support barbarism even in the dream. A saintly person looks upon everyone with the same vision. For him, everybody is a friend. Just because some people might have misused their power and encouraged the nonsense for their self interest does not mean saintly persons and innocent people should be dragged into this rascaldom which is nothing more than fight among dogs.

      - Nitai Das.
      Last edited by nitaidas; 23 Nov 06,, 16:49.

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      • #18
        Jesus or Mohammed or Lord never said that one attack innocent. They taught love for all. Even prophet mohammed ordered defending the people only on attack by foreigners. Who said that one should attack the innocent.

        >>>>>

        Nitai Das, i do believe the HareKrishna people are peaceful people, no meat eating, chanting 16 times a day and living off prasadam. Good for you..but please WHY do you put Mohammed name there with Lord Krishna and Jesus? Totally different philosophies..

        Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

        Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem.

        Qur’an 9:111 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

        Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

        Bukhari: V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”

        Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

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        • #19
          Originally posted by northface View Post
          Jesus or Mohammed or Lord never said that one attack innocent. They taught love for all. Even prophet mohammed ordered defending the people only on attack by foreigners. Who said that one should attack the innocent.

          >>>>>

          Nitai Das, i do believe the HareKrishna people are peaceful people, no meat eating, chanting 16 times a day and living off prasadam. Good for you..but please WHY do you put Mohammed name there with Lord Krishna and Jesus? Totally different philosophies..

          Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

          Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem.

          Qur’an 9:111 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

          Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

          Bukhari: V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”

          Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
          i agree, but ur picking a fight with tronic by saying the above.lol. he is very politically correct:)(only when it comes to religion) even when the truth stares at his face:)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by starsiege View Post
            i agree, but ur picking a fight with tronic by saying the above.lol.
            wtf? Putting words in my mouth?

            he is very politically correct:)(only when it comes to religion) even when the truth stares at his face:)
            you're a fundoo AND a terrorist supporter. I couldn't care less what you say.
            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              wtf? Putting words in my mouth?



              you're a fundoo AND a terrorist supporter. I couldn't care less what you say.
              lol. man u don't know a joke when u see one. even thou im at odds with u on some certain issues would that mean u dont have any humour? come on tronic.lol

              and i knew that this would be ur reply too!. exactly to the word!lol (with some leeway for poetic license)

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              • #22
                Seige

                i agree, but ur picking a fight with tronic by saying the above.lol. he is very politically correct(only when it comes to religion) even when the truth stares at his face

                >>>>>>>>>

                Seige, no i am not trying to have a fight or anything. Just stating that the ideologies are vastly different, so Nitindas innocently put Mohammed into a different category. I am not criticising anybody..or inviting a fight

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                • #23
                  I request everyone who is seeing this message to consider helping the devotees in kazaksthan. Please visit www.palaceofthesoul.com for more information.

                  Nice. No problem. I did not consider that a lot.

                  I will just give a short answer but it is a frequently discussed one.

                  "I know many saintly adherers of Quran and I know Quran. Quran preaches tolerance above all. To fight illegal oppression, yes it is allowed. That is order of Prophet Muhammed. Why defenders should not allow rightful protest of their people against illegal opposition. There are many quotes from Quran which mention about tolerance. Why did not you quote that. Interpretation of scriptures is dangerous."

                  First of all, I am not sure whether the quotes are authentic. I have to refer to the authentic Quran translation. In any case consider this. Is love powerful or force? Do you think force will not destroy love? Word of Lord should be spread with love. Otherwise it is called imposition not compassion.

                  "In every religion war is allowed in unavoidable circumstances, and it should be authorised by saintly persons. The king has to consult saintly person or his self realised spiritual master.

                  Then he should challenge King and Military on the opposite side provided he thinks the opposite side is unduly acting. That is why kings and councillers have a great role to play in the life of citizens. If some how , they are incapable which should not be the case and sees that the other side is really demoniac, they should take help of other saintly kings. And all this is when opposed unduly which is decided not by the king alone but by his advisors also. And the most important rule is that one should never hurt innocent. And even most important saintly should never be offended because they are well wishers of everyone including the animals and plants, what to speak of others.

                  A king challenging others should first have the authority to do that by dint of his having order from the Lord through the self realised souls. And the only reason why he might probably do it is because the other side has no proper rule of the land because of a degraded king. Otherwise scriptures advice everyone to be satisfied by what one has been alloted. Greedy attacks are heavily condemned.

                  Reiterating, the most important rule is that one should never hurt innocent. And even most important saintly should never be offended."


                  Do you think Prophet Mohammed could have allowed undue cruelity in the name of God?

                  Prophet Mohammed ordered the name of Lord to be preached.

                  Yes, harassment of people who go against the law is not a new concept to us. Prisoners should be punished. Otherwise how will they be fearful of commiting sin again. But such an act is authorised to be done by the king and his military and nobody else. And they used to undergo purificatory processes although that is their prescribed duty and there is no sin incurred in the process. It is not ordinary who can bear such great responsibility.

                  "For example in Manu Samhita, life for life is mentioned. Actually, if that is not done, he will anyway have to suffer due to that sin for Lord will not tolerate any such mischief as revealed in all scriptures. Because of corruption, we might be becoming indifferent to a death news but according to scriptures, an unnatural death is an alarming event in any traditional nation."

                  If disobeidance and unauthorised interpretation of scriptures is there, hearts become hard like iron and we become Godless Demons with no trace of mercy in any corner of heart.
                  Last edited by nitaidas; 24 Nov 06,, 17:02.

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                  • #24
                    A Request

                    I request everyone who is seeing this message to consider helping the devotees in kazaksthan. Please visit www.palaceofthesoul.com for more information. Actually, one can see the plight of devotees there in this website.
                    Last edited by nitaidas; 24 Nov 06,, 16:49.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      nitindas:

                      There are many quotes from Quran which mention about tolerance. Why did not you quote that. Interpretation of scriptures is dangerous. First of all, I am not sure whether your quotes are authentic. I have to refer to the authentic Quran translation. In any case consider this. Is love powerful or force? Do you think force will not destroy love? Word of Lord should be spread with love. Otherwise it is called imposition not compassion.
                      >>>>>>>>>>>

                      Nitindas i do appreciate your sentiments and will again say i am not criticizing but pointing to a different philosophy. According to Mohammed it's not love which is all powerful but Jihad. That is obligatory. That is a reason why you will have a lot of difficulty in these countries. You are a pagan and Kafir. Mohammed has nothing but contempt for you. Please realize that. He has ordered his followers to NEVER love you but to kill. Your setting up a Hare Krishna in these locations is an act of agression against Islam for them. For that act of 'aggression' they have religious sanction to use arms against you.


                      009.005
                      YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

                      PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

                      SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

                      2: 216

                      PICKTHAL: Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

                      SHAKIR: Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

                      http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

                      http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html


                      <<<<<Do you think Prophet Mohammed could have allowed undue cruelity in the name of God? >>>>>


                      008.067

                      YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

                      PICKTHAL: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

                      http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html

                      My idea is not to criticize you or Islam..or say which is better the path of love that you assume should be universal on this planet or that of Jihad that Mohammed ordained. But it will help you to know that your principles are pretty much in contravention to that of the Koran. The above quotes are from Islamic scholars and you may read more for yourself and realize why you are having problems in setting up your missions in the Central Asian republics.

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                      • #26
                        "According to Mohammed it's not love which is all powerful but Jihad. That is obligatory"

                        I am sorry to say that you have missed my previous post completely.

                        As for other statements, we should not want interpretations. We should want what Mohammed wanted us to do.

                        To be frank, I did not even go through the other statements. But if they are in line with the teachings, there is problem.

                        A person throwing a ball can be interpreted to throw a bomb. What cannot be interpreted. That is why science of Lord comes to a humble seeker through a self realised soul.

                        I could not go through the site you have mentioned. So I do not know about that. There are many sites which present a view of teachings based on the tolerance and love of Islam. I have already said, a pure heart attracts others, not a forcing heart. I know many really devout Quoran followers and their views. Please refer to my previous posts also and please go through them without any suppositions.

                        Please do not drag Islam into this. We are talking rationality and let us not talk about the holy way of life at all. Please consider your statement "Islam is against.." . Among religion followers might be some less intelligent ones but it does not mean the religion is completely stamped. This is in the case of any school of thought.
                        Last edited by nitaidas; 24 Nov 06,, 17:57.

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                        • #27
                          I have just gone through the other statements and they are very much the same as the initial ones.

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                          • #28
                            I have to leave now. Please note that I am very new to this kind of posts. I was searching for devotees' news and came across this. You might be happy to know that some of the human rights activists in other countries are coming for help. Pray for the welfare of the holy devotees suffering unneccessarily. I spared time for discussion in this particular thread just because I could not tolerate the unnecessary criticism though you might have just pasted it just for fun as I understood later.

                            Hare Krishna.
                            Last edited by nitaidas; 24 Nov 06,, 18:33.

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                            • #29
                              though you might have just pasted it just for fun as I understood later.
                              >>>>>>>>

                              No i have not. I have spent time in ISKCON. I know what you are going through. You have my highest regards. I was only trying to state the truth as i know and can percieve.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by nitaidas View Post
                                I have just gone through the other statements and they are very much the same as the initial ones.
                                Thats because i gave 3 interpretations of each verse. I also reread your replies and feel you assume too many things. Don't think that the HR violations are being carried out irrationaly. It's rational and has purpose. It's Tamsic of you to be naive of the reasons why this is happening. My part i pointed out the conflict in theology.

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