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Thread: Global Warming, A Good Thing?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokensickle View Post
    to them, as I do. The question is, can anyone say beyond a shadow of doubt that these guys are absolutely right? I can't even say that about my theories.
    Their ideas are just that, Theories. And if they say thier theories are fact, they make themselves fools.

    We need to get a little perspective here.

    ~~~~Ivan~~~><//>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Cany ou say without a shadow off doubt what will happen if you put a pistol to your head and pull the trigger?

    I think you cannot therefore its safe to put guns against your head and pull the trigger. There is only so much security you can get regarding any topic.

  2. #17
    Tamizhanban Senior Contributor Jay's Avatar
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    Its pretty simple, we cannot control global warming, its not our wrong doing. If not, there is something seriously wrong in accepting the previous ice ages.
    Last edited by Jay; 18 Dec 06, at 22:35.
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

  3. #18
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombra View Post
    Cany ou say without a shadow off doubt what will happen if you put a pistol to your head and pull the trigger?

    I think you cannot therefore its safe to put guns against your head and pull the trigger. There is only so much security you can get regarding any topic.

    Of course I can. I've done it with an empty gun. I knew precisely what would happen. Therefore you used the wrong analogy here.

    Can you say precisely what would happen if we keep burning fossil fuel? Where is your proof? How was this conclusion arrived at? Has there been any precedence?

    I can give you proof, conclusion, and method of testing if you put a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger. There have been plenty of precedences. In fact, I have a police security camara footage of a guy pulling the trigger with a loaded gun pointed at his own head.

    Show me proof of global warming.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  4. #19
    Banned brokensickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombra View Post
    Cany ou say without a shadow off doubt what will happen if you put a pistol to your head and pull the trigger?

    I think you cannot therefore its safe to put guns against your head and pull the trigger. There is only so much security you can get regarding any topic.
    A fool puts a loaded gun to his head and pulls the trigger. But the models have so many variables, some we don't understand. There are as many models as there are scientist. It's anyones guess what the hecks going on, but someone is bound to be right weather they know it or not. So I have put in my vote that there will be global warming. Based on a gut feeling and the knowledge that the earth has seen global warming in the past, not to mention the increase of solar radiation.
    Didn't your daddy tell you not to play with guns, loaded or unloaded?


    Ivan

  5. #20
    Military Professional canoe's Avatar
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    Not an expert on the topic but figured I'd toss in my 2 cents.

    My opinion is global warming as in the increased levels of CO2 and greenhouse gases thickening the atmosphere and raising the mean average temprature on the planet seem to be fairly well proven theory at this point with alot of facts and good research to back it up.

    However alot of people ignore two facts:

    1. Even if global warming was a completely proven and completely accepted theory and the consequences were well known and understood by everyone people/countries will still pollute regardless and increase green house gases. If everyone in the world acted morally and in everyone best interests we wouldn't need giant militaries.

    2. Global warming has happened before, many times. Drilled ice core samples the arctic show that the earth has gone through several global warming periods and ice ages since the formation of the poles. Therefor its reasonable to assume the earth can handle these extreme shifts and has infact done so before in the past many times.

    Basiclly if the problem can be addressed on a global scale great. If not then we should start looking at what the consequences and long term effects of global warming will be and prepare for them.
    Last edited by canoe; 19 Dec 06, at 03:19.

  6. #21
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    Not an expert on the topic but figured I'd toss in my 2 cents.

    My opinion is global warming as in the increased levels of CO2 and greenhouse gases thickening the atmosphere and raising the mean average temprature on the planet seem to be fairly well proven theory at this point with alot of facts and good research to back it up.
    You are wrong. As yet there is no proven relation between atmospheric CO2 and increases in global temperature. See the other climate threads in this forum for details. They MAY indeed be related but as yet the concept has passed no test, regardless of your opinion.

    -dale

  7. #22
    Banned brokensickle's Avatar
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    One fact that is not disputable.

    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    Not an expert on the topic but figured I'd toss in my 2 cents.

    My opinion is global warming as in the increased levels of CO2 and greenhouse gases thickening the atmosphere and raising the mean average temprature on the planet seem to be fairly well proven theory at this point with alot of facts and good research to back it up.

    However alot of people ignore two facts:

    1. Even if global warming was a completely proven and completely accepted theory and the consequences were well known and understood by everyone people/countries will still pollute regardless and increase green house gases. If everyone in the world acted morally and in everyone best interests we wouldn't need giant militaries.

    2. Global warming has happened before, many times. Drilled ice core samples the arctic show that the earth has gone through several global warming periods and ice ages since the formation of the poles. Therefor its reasonable to assume the earth can handle these extreme shifts and has infact done so before in the past many times.

    Basiclly if the problem can be addressed on a global scale great. If not then we should start looking at what the consequences and long term effects of global warming will be and prepare for them.

    One fact that can not be disputed is the increase in solar radiation and solar flares. A theory is not a fact but a presupposition based on data.


    Ivan

  8. #23
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokensickle View Post
    Julie,

    What do you think of all the solar flares and warm winter weather in Russia, Europe and around the Northern Hemisphere?
    I'm hoping it is in line with the proven 1500 year climate cycle. On the other hand, if it's not, it would not hurt to take some preventionary measures. Better safe than sorry I say.

  9. #24
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    Not an expert on the topic but figured I'd toss in my 2 cents.

    My opinion is global warming as in the increased levels of CO2 and greenhouse gases thickening the atmosphere and raising the mean average temprature on the planet seem to be fairly well proven theory at this point with alot of facts and good research to back it up.
    Nope. What you have cited is correlation and inference. We have never proven in any way shape or form that an elevated CO2 level in the atmosphere will lead to the "greenhouse effect" that the global warming cult costantly talks about. All these people do is assume that the atmosphere is a closed and static system, like that of a greenhouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    1. Even if global warming was a completely proven and completely accepted theory and the consequences were well known and understood by everyone people/countries will still pollute regardless and increase green house gases. If everyone in the world acted morally and in everyone best interests we wouldn't need giant militaries.
    That's pretty much it.

    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    2. Global warming has happened before, many times. Drilled ice core samples the arctic show that the earth has gone through several global warming periods and ice ages since the formation of the poles. Therefor its reasonable to assume the earth can handle these extreme shifts and has infact done so before in the past many times.
    And has anyone noticed that there were no humans here to burn fossil fuel back then, yet the earth stilled warmed up. Then the earth cooled down without our help, all the way to the ice age. Bottom line is the earth will do what it wants. We can't control it. And we aren't the cause of it. To think otherwise is just arrogant to the extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    Basiclly if the problem can be addressed on a global scale great. If not then we should start looking at what the consequences and long term effects of global warming will be and prepare for them.
    I always said that we should resume atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons in hope of creating a limited scale "nuclear winter" to offset "global warming." Two junk sciences will cancel each other out.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  10. #25
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    WellŽ, you could put Venus as an example of extreme global warming if you want to see an example of greehouse effect.

    The problem is not so much that warming occurs but that it will / is happening quite fast. The mostly populated areas in the world are right now coastal areas.

    Lets simply say 9/11 is a hoax too, 3000 people died. People died all the time without terrorists ergo terrorists dont exist.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    Nope. What you have cited is correlation and inference. We have never proven in any way shape or form that an elevated CO2 level in the atmosphere will lead to the "greenhouse effect" that the global warming cult costantly talks about. All these people do is assume that the atmosphere is a closed and static system, like that of a greenhouse.
    In this case I was sceptical myself when I first started hearing about all this. However I've seen alot of charts which pretty much put it in plain english comparing the CO2 levels and related average temprature. To put it bluntly they match up. I am definitely not a environmental nut or in any 'cult' but at a certain point I will acknowledge the obvious. This is something that unless your open minded and do a bit of research on your own your not going to have anyone else convince you during a conversation. You need to look at the hard data yourself, if your sceptical of the non-profits try to stick to the university and government agency websites. The data generally is the same but they tend to be a little more objective and stick to just presenting the data.

    http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C...ature-plot.svg
    http://rainforests.mongabay.com/09-carbon_emissions.htm
    Lots more on google.

    And has anyone noticed that there were no humans here to burn fossil fuel back then, yet the earth stilled warmed up. Then the earth cooled down without our help, all the way to the ice age. Bottom line is the earth will do what it wants. We can't control it. And we aren't the cause of it. To think otherwise is just arrogant to the extreme.
    I think we can influence it however I agree we can't completely control it. However I think we also need to accept human nature as part of the equation when planning. There is only so much that can be done on the prevention side.

    I always said that we should resume atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons in hope of creating a limited scale "nuclear winter" to offset "global warming." Two junk sciences will cancel each other out.
    No comment.
    Last edited by canoe; 19 Dec 06, at 13:08.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokensickle View Post
    One fact that can not be disputed is the increase in solar radiation and solar flares. A theory is not a fact but a presupposition based on data.


    Ivan
    Increase in solar flares???

  13. #28
    Military Professional canoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalem View Post
    You are wrong. As yet there is no proven relation between atmospheric CO2 and increases in global temperature. See the other climate threads in this forum for details. They MAY indeed be related but as yet the concept has passed no test, regardless of your opinion.

    -dale
    There are plenty of charts from the government organizations and universities that graph the two together and they match each other very closely. People can still choose and many will choose to not believe it, my personal opinion is if we are causing the temperature changes we are going to keep doing it regardless of what data people show anyway. Mankind is pretty predictable in certain situations.

    As to the concept passing a test I have no idea how you do a controlled test on changes and their effects to a global atmospheric system.
    Last edited by canoe; 19 Dec 06, at 13:05.

  14. #29
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombra View Post
    WellŽ, you could put Venus as an example of extreme global warming if you want to see an example of greehouse effect.

    The problem is not so much that warming occurs but that it will / is happening quite fast. The mostly populated areas in the world are right now coastal areas.

    Lets simply say 9/11 is a hoax too, 3000 people died. People died all the time without terrorists ergo terrorists dont exist.
    Venus is a great example of what is thought of as "runaway greenhouse" - when the changes caused by the greenhouse reinforce more such changes. There is no reason to believe that any such extreme condition could occur on this planet, or even that the original trigger was itself "greenhouseian".

    And why do you say that the current warming trend on Earth is happening "fast"? Fast as opposed to what?

    -dale

  15. #30
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoe View Post
    Increase in solar flares???
    Yep. You remember the Sun, don'tcha? That big thermonuclear furnace we happen to orbit? Well, no matter how much Al Gore wants to ignore it, the Sun varies in temperature, activity, and thus its energy output. The gross variances that we know of correspond well to what we infer about gross global temps here on Earth, and the finer variances we have measured recently match well with smaller peaks and troughs of temperature here.

    Solar flares are an indicator of increased Solar activity, and they were increasing in occurrence and intensity all through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. They reached a historical peak right around 2000-2001 or so and I believe they've been calming down since then.

    -dale

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