What is Best MBT in Asia?

[Officer of Engineers]

I have absolutely no idea where you get your evals. If you want to compare the Soviet and Israeli armies, why not use real campaigns instead of the proxies?

I challenge you to find any evidence that the Israelis could have repulsed the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. Whether you think the Afghans were a worthy foe or not does not eliminate the fact that it was one hell of an operation. The timing was perfect. The support was perfect. Hell, they even built roads to support their invasion - right in the middle of their Afghan winter.

The Israelis sent their tanks across the border and straight into a minefield with no engineers in sight ... and they watched the Hezbollah plant those mines. Or how about the fact that their infantry and their tanks don't know where each other are? Forcing the tanks to fight and die without infantry support.

As for the determination of the Russian soldier, I think Beslan is more than enough to motiviate them right now. Now, let's talk determination. Did the Russians abandon Grozny III because of mounting casualties?

Did the Israelis give up when they could not take Hezbollah strongholds?

I think you know the answer to that big time.

As for whether you think the Soviets could have walked over the Israelis or not, well, you didn't get it, surprising for an Assault Pioneer. The Israelis thought they would die against the Soviets. They lacked confidence to take them head on. I've provided proof that they were scared. And you as an Assault Pioneer should know damned well that you might not win with confidence but you certainly will lose without it.

As for taking on the Soviets, the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group attached to VII Corps. That was our job.

[Adux]

Pioneer,

Arent you saying that soldiers only perform when they know it is do or die. Otherwise they arent motivated enough? I would have to disagree over there.b

[Pioneer]

Officer of Engineers
I am very sorry that you are getting so wound up about this my friend!

But I have never stated anything about Israel challenging or repulsing the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan – so I do not know how or why I would provide evidence!!

If the Soviets had intervened in the Middle-East wars, in the attempt of saving or propping up their puppet Arab allies, it would not have just been the Israeli’s that would be doing battle with the Soviets.
Do you think the United States would have just stood by and let the Soviets invade the only democracy and real trusted friend (and give up the security of the oil in the region) in the Middle-East?
No the Soviets would have known that war against Israel would have meant war with the United States (and possibly NATO).

I also think that the Soviets would have had a time of it deploying divisions to the region over night (after all Iran was still a friend of the United States, as to was Turkey).

If they had of intervened, how do you think the Soviets would have deployed their forces to attack Israel?
Through Iran or Turkey?
Via the Mediterranean - Amphibious Assault, past the narrows Greece and Turkey?
Or by airborne divisions?

You correctly state that-
‘The Israelis sent their tanks across the border and straight into a minefield with no engineers in sight’ ... and they watched the Hezbollah plant those mines. Or how about the fact that their infantry and their tanks don't know where each other are? Forcing the tanks to fight and die without infantry support’.
I do not question this fact!
I put this down to overconfidence of the IDF – which was both dangerous and stupid
Unfortunately they have paid a high price, and will hopefully learn from this.

After all historically – most powerful conventional armies that have grown accustomed to conventional warfare – rush into unconventional/ guerrilla warfare thinking that firepower alone will see them through – The French in Indo-China, American’s in Vietnam, Soviets in Afghanistan, Russian’s in Chechnya……………….
It as always cost them in high casualties, low moral and drawn-out time frame, before they ‘relearn’ how to fight guerrillas!

As for your criticism as to my skill and knowledge as an Assault Pioneer –
I had little (nil) say or input into how the Israeli’s attempted (and failed) to do an appreciation of the extent, depth and composition of the Hezbollah laid mine fields!
Especially as you have stated, that the Israeli’s ‘watched the Hezbollah plant those mines’
(Hell with the Israeli expertise of RPV – I would have used the likes of their ‘Pioneer’ PRV, armed with a 7.62mm weapon to attack the Hezbollah where and when they were in the process of laying these mines day or night!!! Or engage them with mortar fire!!! – After all you never lay a minefield without covering it with cover fire; like you never let an enemy lay a mine field in peace or immunity!)

What can I say – Crazy, bizarre, over confident?????????????????????????
I will be the first to state that one of IDF short falls is Combat Engineers + Ground based air defence and artillery!
But as you will be able to verify (as a Combat Engineer your self!)
That like Australia, the Canadian Defence Force (army) we are based on the British Army doctrine of Engineering/Pioneer structure.
So you and I would not have attempted to breach a known enemy defensive position with out in-depth recon and probing!!

The most confusing thing to me though is to the extent that the Israeli’s Army has gone to, to both design and build such specialized engineering and mine warfare equipment and vehicles, that you (as a Canadian) and I (as an Australian) would give our back teeth for!
And yet they did not seem to use these to breach these mine fields???????
Again I can only put it down to over confidence!!!

As for your comment –
‘As for whether you think the Soviets could have walked over the Israelis or not, well, you didn't get it, surprising for an Assault Pioneer. The Israelis thought they would die against the Soviets. They lacked confidence to take them head on. I've provided proof that they were scared. And you as an Assault Pioneer should know damned well that you might not win with confidence but you certainly will lose without it’.

Hell as I have already stated – What army could withstand the full might of a Soviet armoured thrust head-on by themselves in the numbers that the Soviets had??????
None! - Not Israel, not West Germany, and probably not even the United States.
That is why the alliance of NATO was created.

As you have clearly stated (and I take my hat of to them!!)
‘As for taking on the Soviets, the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group attached to VII Corps. That was our job.
Let me ask you this how do you think your 4th Mech Bde Group would have faired against the might of the Soviet War machine that was opposite you???
Not as an intricate part of NATO, but as an individual!
The Canadian’s, like the Israeli’s would have been crushed, burned and buried there and then – sorry!

Regards
Your brother in arms
Pioneer

[Officer of Engineers]

If the Soviets had intervened in the Middle-East wars, in the attempt of saving or propping up their puppet Arab allies, it would not have just been the Israeli’s that would be doing battle with the Soviets.
Do you think the United States would have just stood by and let the Soviets invade the only democracy and real trusted friend (and give up the security of the oil in the region) in the Middle-East?

The point was to challenge your assertion that the IDF was better than the Soviet Army. It was not. Not by a long shot.

Let me ask you this how do you think your 4th Mech Bde Group would have faired against the might of the Soviet War machine that was opposite you???
Not as an intricate part of NATO, but as an individual!
The Canadian’s, like the Israeli’s would have been crushed, burned and buried there and then – sorry!

That was one of the scenarios. VII Corps relied on 2 brigades for the heads up fight against what we thought would be the 1st Moscow and the 16 Guards. One scenario was an attack from the barracks in which the 11ACR was to buy time for VII Corps to set up a hasty defence. Failing that, it was 4CMBG's job to buy time for VII Corps to get across the Rhine. So, yes, 4CMBG was expected to take on 2 Soviet armies. Most likely, we would die doing so but we were confident that we could hold them off until VII Corps get across the Rhine.

So again, I re-iterate. We were a WWIII army. The Israelis were not. There is no way that they were better than us. Not by a long shot.

Regards
Your brother in arms
Pioneer

So why did you return to the Pioneers this close to retirement? Not bucking for your Captains for the retirement funds?

[Adux]

If IDF was better than Soviets, then NATO would be the biggest jackass's the history has ever produced. I dont think so.

[Pioneer]

From Officer of Engineers So why did you return to the Pioneers this close to retirement?

Hell my friend
Retirement?
I am only 37 years old
Joined when I was 17!
I am just on 2 weeks leave

From Officer of Engineers Not bucking for your Captains for the retirement funds?

Do I detect some sarcasam here????
I have had the pleasure of working with the Canadians
Never come across any of them so........so.......Sarcastic or head strong!
Talking about service time - What’s your service history?
What active service time have you done?



Gents I still do not know how we got onto this of so called Israel better than the Soviets??????????????????????
I was talking about the Arabs and Israeli's during the 1973 Yom Kipper War

From Adux If IDF was better than Soviets, then NATO would be the biggest jackass's the history has ever produced. I dont think so.

Where did this come from?.
Again I have not stated that the IDF was better than NATO!

Hell gents - 'Welcome to the Forum Pioneer!'
I do not recall putting rounds down range at you?


Regards
Pioneer

[Officer of Engineers]

Your words.

But it was the skill, training, initiative, experience, professionalism and C3 which allowed the IDF to take stock of this desperate situation and stop the Arab invasion, then to go on the attack.

All this was a Soviet conceived, planned and sponsored and equipped operation.
All this was based on Soviet doctrine of Shock Warfare, which it had planned and equipped for in case of war with NATO.
The Arabs had the superiority in manpower, tanks, aircraft, artillery, over Israel – as stated by soviet doctrine dictated.
The Arabs had the massive advantage of being able to attack Israel on multiple fronts – causing Israel to divide its defences and resources
The Arabs failed, and so too did the entire Soviet conceived doctrine.
The Soviets were so shocked and taken back by this failure that it spent many years analyzing its failures, which itself required the Soviet’s Army to reassess its whole war fighting doctrine (I have always wondered how many Soviet high ranking officers would have been put up against a wall a shot?)

So I would not be too confident that the Soviet’s vs. Israel would be a push over!

For another thing that has become very obvious since the Second World War, is that the Soviet soldier is a tenacious fighter when it is his homeland at risk (added to the fact that there is a political officer behind him with a bullet with his name on it if he does not obey every crazy conceived order he is give!).
As to have the Israeli soldier!
But the Soviet soldier is an entirely different beast when it comes to invading another country, that he knows and care little about, let alone die for (Exemplified by the Russian invasion of Finland, and decades later in the invasion of Afghanistan)
In both invasions of Finland and Afghanistan, the Soviets were embarrassed by the fact that so many of their soldiers deserted to the enemy!
‘Just think’ Finland was not much different to that of Israel – small size, small population, geographically isolated, a small Defence Force.
And yet it was able to both stop and bleed the Russian Army for a very long period of time, until world events (WWII) isolated it from help or hope.
Israel is very similar in this respect.

As to bucking for your Capts remark. Standard practice in our armies that it is better to retire on a Capt salary than on a Sgt's. So, 19 years in the same platoon? Never went to brigade?

[Ray]

When one wants to know which is the best MBT, one can only give an opinion that looks good on a Weapons and Technological glossy..

An MBT qualities depends on the Threat Perception and the terrain. For instance, if one wants to operate a heavy MBT in the riverine terrain as in Bangladesh, notwithstanding the technological marvels, it will bog down and become a sitting duck.

So,there is nothing as the best MBT.

In the 1971 war, the PT 76 turned out the best tank since it could move everywhere and was effective and did the job of pressing on the advance!!

[Pioneer]

Your words.



As to bucking for your Capts remark. Standard practice in our armies that it is better to retire on a Capt salary than on a Sgt's. So, 19 years in the same platoon? Never went to brigade?

Not an officer
I have always worked for a living! Ha ha
4-years as a rifle man
3-years as a mortarman
3-years in Recon
9-years in Pioneers

Regards
Pioneer

[S2]

Pioneer Reply

"Hell gents - 'Welcome to the Forum Pioneer!'"

Well that would have been difficult as you've never checked into our Member Introductions thread located prominently at the top of the home page.

Having decided to, instead, introduce yourself on various "best of" threads, you proceeded to pronounce the U.S. infantry as somewhere well down your list of capable organizations, deride the M-2 Bradley, question the merits of buying the M1A1 and proclaim for all the superiority of the Centurion to M-48 Pattons in SVN.

All without elaboration as though God had pontificated for WAB's benefit.

That was just for starters. Then you proceed to smart-ass a Canadian colonel of engineers- REPEATEDLY.

Worst, when you do share your expertise with us, you prove to be well off the mark.

"I do not recall putting rounds down range at you?"

Short and limited memory, eh? I do.

[Deltacamelately]

That was one of the scenarios. VII Corps relied on 2 brigades for the heads up fight against what we thought would be the 1st Moscow and the 16 Guards.

Sir, if I am correct the 4 CMBG conducted some unit level training in 1980s, followed by Brigade level collective training leading to Exercise VIGILANT BADGER IV conducted somewhere in Nurnberg. It was only after that, that the brigade was redeployed to the VII (US) Corps Area for Exercise CERTAIN RAMPART as part of the 1st US Armored division. I might be wrong, am I?

[Adux]

Pioneer,

Officer of Engineer's was a career military Engg retired as a Colonel, He has served during the cold war all the way upto Bosnia UNPFOR. Please show him due courtesy, he is a moderater and an avid china watcher; more than anything else a great teacher and loved here in WAB very much.

Do jump into the intro section, and do give your details, so as the admins can bring you to the military professionals category.


Adu

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, if I am correct the 4 CMBG conducted some unit level training in 1980s, followed by Brigade level collective training leading to Exercise VIGILANT BADGER IV conducted somewhere in Nurnberg. It was only after that, that the brigade was redeployed to the VII (US) Corps Area for Exercise CERTAIN RAMPART as part of the 1st US Armored division. I might be wrong, am I?

There were individual battle group and brigade level training events to finely honed our tasks (there is never enough time to do everything you need to do at a division exercise) but we were always part of a bigger force. By the time I got there, 4CMBG was already being tasked as VII Corp's strategic reserves.