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  • the wall wasn't contiguous and was actually regularly breached at a number of points
    its main advantage was the ability of those on the paved connecting outposts to reinforce neighbouring passes and beacon towers under attack very quickly.
    its whole construction philosophy changes over time and in the regions where the threats shifted and changed

    its not a single engineering entity
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    • Originally posted by Monash View Post
      Not say it couldn't be done or didn't happen, just that to the best of my knowledge it doesn't seem to have been used on a large scale and recorded.
      That's because you read about the major breaches or the repulsion of small incursions. Well, the small incursions is what leads to the big breaches. The Steppe horsemen can always withdraw when the objective becomes unattainable. The wall can't pursue and destroy.
      Chimo

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      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        You're shitting me! Ain Jalut
        What about it,Sir?Crusaders negociated with Kitbuga until they learned of renewed raids in Europe.Then they stayed neutral.
        Those who know don't speak
        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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        • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
          What about it,Sir?Crusaders negociated with Kitbuga until they learned of renewed raids in Europe.Then they stayed neutral.
          They didn't stay neutral. They allowed the Mamluks through their territories to get to the Mongols.
          Chimo

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          • I've searched through the internet and I've not found one single incidence where the wall was breached at prepared points. The Qing breached the wall through treachery by a traitor Ming Gneral, not by superior breaching power. Sorry, Crusader technology is NOT superior to Ming Engineering.

            Hell, the Mamlukes found the weakness, tunneling under the Crusader wall and undermining the foundation.
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 18 Aug 16,, 06:14.
            Chimo

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              I've searched through the internet and I've not found one single incidence where the wall was breached at prepared points. The Qing breached the wall through treachery by a traitor Ming Gneral, not by superior breaching power. Sorry, Crusader technology is NOT superior to Ming Engineering.

              Hell, the Mamlukes found the weakness, tunneling under the Crusader wall and undermining the foundation.
              also the wall was not contiguous - breaches used to happen in open sections - and against lightly guarded areas where they didn't necessarily have parapet lanes for horses (eg wide enough for a fast moving column but not mounted troops)

              the heavily fortified sections tended to be avoided as there was no point throwing people against them. the mongols were strategists - not suicide squads
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              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                I've searched through the internet and I've not found one single incidence where the wall was breached at prepared points. The Qing breached the wall through treachery by a traitor Ming Gneral, not by superior breaching power. Sorry, Crusader technology is NOT superior to Ming Engineering.

                Hell, the Mamlukes found the weakness, tunneling under the Crusader wall and undermining the foundation.
                Sorry, but no forts in China from the period in question even come close to crusader castles. Granted the source is WIKI but... Counter weight trebuchets introduced from the West lead to the rapid collapse of the frontier cities of the Song Empire including the battle of Xiangyang. The Chinese lead the way in a lot of areas, but siege warfare wasn't one of them.

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                • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                  Sorry, but no forts in China from the period in question even come close to crusader castles. Granted the source is WIKI but... Counter weight trebuchets introduced from the West lead to the rapid collapse of the frontier cities of the Song Empire including the battle of Xiangyang. The Chinese lead the way in a lot of areas, but siege warfare wasn't one of them.
                  The actual point was the Mongols had both the technique and the technology to overcome Crusader castles.
                  Chimo

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                  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    The actual point was the Mongols had both the technique and the technology to overcome Crusader castles.
                    And they still failed doing so in Eastern Europe.
                    Those who know don't speak
                    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                    • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                      And they still failed doing so in Eastern Europe.
                      They weren't serious. 30,000 men ain't enough to conquer Eastern Europe. Even if it were the best military force on earth at the time.
                      Chimo

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                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        The actual point was the Mongols had both the technique and the technology to overcome Crusader castles.
                        Subutai's raids occurred before the Mongols got counter-weight trebuchets. The first known Mongol use of them was by Hugalu who wasn't even born until 10 years after Subutai died. By then the Mongol army wasn't nearly the force it had been. Subutai's warriors were hardier, more fatalistic, more callous, not all at urban and far more motivated.

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                        • The Mongols had competent generals after Subatai, though not nearly his stature but they weren't know nothings either.
                          Chimo

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                          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            The Mongols had competent generals after Subatai, though not nearly his stature but they weren't know nothings either.
                            They were competent, some like Tamurlane were even great but none of their men were of the caliber of the troops that raided Poland and crushed Hungary generalled by someone of Subutai's caliber.

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                            • And what sort of troops were those?The troops that conquered Mongolia,China or Khwarzem were 50-70 years old(Subutai was 70 at the time).The troops were equally good .They had the same training and skill and came from the same lifestyle and culture.

                              The leaders afterwards were not Genghis or Subutai,but they also faced tougher opposition.The Europeans adapted,fast.The Chinese did not.
                              Those who know don't speak
                              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                              • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                                The leaders afterwards were not Genghis or Subutai,but they also faced tougher opposition.The Europeans adapted,fast.The Chinese did not.
                                That's horse puckey. The Song had canon parks long before the Europeans.
                                Chimo

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