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**Lunatock** · 06 Apr 04,, 14:46

Re: Black Hawk Down AAR

Originally posted by TopHatter
Yes, this is yet another thread about the Battle of Mogdishu.
I've been re-reading (again) and re-watching (again) Black Hawk Down and I've been left with a lot of questions for our current and former servicemen (and women?) on the board.
As far as the actual battle went, what went RIGHT out there?
So much ink has been spilled about what went wrong. What I would like to know is, what worked? Was the 10th Mountain Division the "regular Army schmoes" that one Ranger made them out to be? Were the Pakistanis and Malaysians of more use than just their tanks and APCs?
Amongst the Rangers, Delta SEALs etc, who did it right and who didnt? Why?
As regards the movie, there had to be several characters "composisted" into a few to fit into the restraints fo the movie. For example Sergeant Eversmann (in the movie) did many things that were actually done by others, but just how well did the real Eversmann do? Do he "do it right"? Where is Eversmann now?
The Delta character "Hoot": Was he based on the real Delta operator Hooten, or was he a composite?
Gary Gordon and Randy Shugart are talked about a lot here on the board. Are the official accounts of their unquestionably heroic and selfless effort to save Durant and his crew accurate?
I'm sure a few of us on the board are probably tired of "Black Hawk Down being brought up here ALL the time", but as I am re-reading Bowden's book, these and many other questions have been popping up and, short of interviewing these brave men myself, I figured this was the best place to get the answers I seek
Thanks guys, in advance.

Let's see if I can't keep you happy until RetPara or Mtnbiker stumble apon this thread. Though not a serviceman. (and haven't hit the coffee yet this morning either.)

Last I heard Matt Eversman is still serving, and is a Master SGT.

If it's accurate descriptions...Durant's book, in the Company Of Heroes would probably be your best bet. He was there and described the shootout as he saw (and couldn't see) it.

Tired of BHD being brought up all the time??? Blashpemy! Blasphemy I say! <shameless plug>But a good remedy for that could be Durant's book.<shameless plug>

And of course, such questions might be answered to your satisfaction here http://www.BHD93.com/.

One small friendly warning about the BHD93 crew though: They've already mentioned they don't like playing what if.

**Officer of Engineers** · 06 Apr 04,, 18:36

Operationally speaking, I like the execution of that op. People kept enough sense to back off and regroup even under the most desperate of circumstances.

I also was amazed that the UN contigent can put together an arm'd column that fast with so little warning time. The movie did not convey the vast amount of work done in so little time to get that column moving.

**Lunatock** · 06 Apr 04,, 21:16

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Operationally speaking, I like the execution of that op. People kept enough sense to back off and regroup even under the most desperate of circumstances.

I also was amazed that the UN contigent can put together an arm'd column that fast with so little warning time. The movie did not convey the vast amount of work done in so little time to get that column moving.

Heard at least one of the gothic serpent vet's say that the Pakistani's in the armored vehicles left just as quickly as they rolled out from the soccer stadium. Resulting in Rangers & D-Boys running the "Mogadishu Mile".

The movie didn't show the entire run. Maybe the 3 Disk DVD set shows one of them take a 7.62 in one of the flash bang grenades fastened to his vest.

**TopHatter** · 06 Apr 04,, 23:27

Thanks 'tock and Colonel
I didnt mean to exclude non-servicepeople (like me) from this discussion, consider that statement amended:ermm
I'm going to the BHD link you provided Lunatock, and in this case I don't like the "what if" game either.

**Lunatock** · 07 Apr 04,, 02:04

Glad we're in agreement of that all around Top Hatter. Things happen, and if they suck then they suck.

Another fun fact about the quiet professionals. If you ever find yourself in any sort of contest with them...just let them win and be done with it. They tend to come back later and can be quite ruthless in thier attempts at one upmanship.

Ex. "Blackhawk too slow".

And a convincing "threat" yelled my way, after e-mailing Snipe and telling him about a ribbing CWO4 Mike Durant recieved from me. (nosy too aren't "they") :P

**Bill** · 07 Apr 04,, 05:20

"As far as the actual battle went, what went RIGHT out there?"

Lots of things, actually. To a man no one panicked. The Rangers and Delta operators adhered to their training, and tactics, and as a result sustained relatively light casualties considering the nature of the enemy and the engagement. Excellent fire discipline was apparent throughout the engagement- no one was pissing away ammo.

Delta executed an excellent breakout of Colonel Steeles AO in order to reach crash site 2.

The initial snatch and grab operation was executed flawlessly.

10th Mountain are 'just' regular light infantry...but then again so were Sgt's York and Murphy. So what does that really mean?

"Amongst the Rangers, Delta SEALs etc, who did it right and who didnt? Why?"

There were no SEALs on the raid. Delta and Rangers only.

"Gary Gordon and Randy Shugart are talked about a lot here on the board. Are the official accounts of their unquestionably heroic and selfless effort to save Durant and his crew accurate?"

No, the true account is actually far more heroic. They expended nearly their entire ammunition loads in defense of CWO Durant, and held the LZ for several hours before the position was overrun. Not bad for a 2 man sniper team...

**TopHatter** · 08 Apr 04,, 02:26

There were no SEALs on the raid. Delta and Rangers only.

I had to look it up in Bowden's book to get the exact info, but it said there was 4 SEAL's from SEAL Team Six that were with LTC McKnight's ground convoy. There was also at least 2 Air Force PJ's aloft. I guess the Delta guys were a little annoyed at having interservice "jointness" kinda forced upon them. Although, as I understand, in the 10 years since, joint operations have become much more common. Can anybody confirm this?

**Officer of Engineers** · 08 Apr 04,, 04:20

Originally posted by Lunatock
Heard at least one of the gothic serpent vet's say that the Pakistani's in the armored vehicles left just as quickly as they rolled out from the soccer stadium. Resulting in Rangers & D-Boys running the "Mogadishu Mile".

I can readily identify with that. Different SOPs and cultural misunderstandings. The Paks have no problem leaving people behind as long as the main OPOBJ is accomplished - look at Kragil. To this day, I continually argue against pitting people together who have not trained together.

**Bill** · 08 Apr 04,, 07:24

"I had to look it up in Bowden's book to get the exact info, but it said there was 4 SEAL's from SEAL Team Six that were with LTC McKnight's ground convoy. "

I thought you meant the Raid element of the mission.

My appologies.

There were all kinds of people in McKnights relief column. Pretty much anyone with guts and a gun went along...that could fit anyway.

**TopHatter** · 08 Apr 04,, 12:43

:ermm Actually, I was talking about the Raid element. Check out "SEALs" in the index of BHD. I believe the first reference in the book is to the 4 Team Six guys going on the initial ground convoy that was supposed to extract the prisoners

**Bill** · 08 Apr 04,, 18:06

Were they supposed to be there, or did they just come along?

Been a long time since i read the book.

**Lunatock** · 08 Apr 04,, 21:41

Originally posted by M21Sniper
"I had to look it up in Bowden's book to get the exact info, but it said there was 4 SEAL's from SEAL Team Six that were with LTC McKnight's ground convoy. "

I thought you meant the Raid element of the mission.

My appologies.

There were all kinds of people in McKnights relief column. Pretty much anyone with guts and a gun went along...that could fit anyway.

History Channel's special The True Story Of Blackhawk Down, mentioned Seals were providing support on the ground convoy.

You know that SHTF if a situation develops like the overpass in Baghdad, where the reporter thought about grabbing a rifle to help out.

Or the battle of Qala-e-Jangi, where Robert Young Pelton was with the Green Berets, and later was the guy that discovered Johnny Taliban.

If there had been any embeds or any of the "adventure dipshits" there, some of them would of probably asked.

("Adventure dipshits" come from a joke about RYP doing t.v. commercials and introducing himself.)

**TopHatter** · 09 Apr 04,, 00:55

Originally posted by M21Sniper
Were they supposed to be there, or did they just come along?

Been a long time since i read the book.

From what I understand, they were supposed to be there, as the Navy SPECFOR contribution to TF Ranger.
Like I mentioned before, the Delta guys (and probably Rangers as well) were a bit annoyed that the Navy and Air Force were horning in on their show, but for the most part the Army guys were cool towards the SEALs and PJs (with exceptions, I gathered)

**Bill** · 09 Apr 04,, 01:16

I can't see myself bitching about having either SEALs or PJs there to cover my six...

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