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  • #61
    Justification is an odd measurement for this subject. The Crusaders did some evil things, but yeah, I doubt they were worse than what the Arabs would've done. The Crusaders weren't really more evil than their enemies, who were probably more insane than the Christians ever could be. The perception that the Arabs are super nice, super advanced, ultra civilized good guys who were being picked on by the evil white European Christians is yet another retarded invention of political correctness, which is perhaps the worst thing ever invented by the Beast. It's like the idea that American Indians were noble savages and that they were very civilized, etc and didn't have any negative traits, and that the only reason they would ever fight back is because they're being picked on by the "white devils".

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    • #62
      Well, we have the facts: What Crusaders did when they conqered Jerusalem, and what Salladin did when he took it back?
      And the main question:
      Why was done the IV crusade war? It didn't have any relations with liberating the Holly Grave. The Byzantium were the christian empire. And the Constantinopolis suffered almost the same that Jerusalem suffered about 100 years earlier.
      With Faith in God,
      For King and Fatherland!

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Labud_NS View Post
        Well, we have the facts: What Crusaders did when they conqered Jerusalem, and what Salladin did when he took it back?
        And the main question:
        Why was done the IV crusade war? It didn't have any relations with liberating the Holly Grave. The Byzantium were the christian empire. And the Constantinopolis suffered almost the same that Jerusalem suffered about 100 years earlier.
        You've got to start examining things in historical context. Take a look at the conquests and attacks against the Christian west, prior to and subsequent of, the crusades. Also examine the ongoing internecine wars within Islam itself. Now tell me again about the civility of Islam and the barbarity of Christendom
        http://www.barkati.net/english/chronology.htm
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

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        • #64
          I know that Arabs conquered the Spain, but there wasn't the massive slaghterers like this one at Jerusalem.
          Anyway, noone can tell me thing I ask the third time:
          Why was done the IV crusade war? It didn't have any relations with liberating the Holly Grave. The Byzantium were the christian empire. And the Constantinopolis suffered almost the same that Jerusalem suffered about 100 years earlier.
          With Faith in God,
          For King and Fatherland!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Labud_NS View Post
            I know that Arabs conquered the Spain, but there wasn't the massive slaghterers like this one at Jerusalem.
            Anyway, noone can tell me thing I ask the third time:

            Quote:
            Why was done the IV crusade war? It didn't have any relations with liberating the Holly Grave. The Byzantium were the christian empire. And the Constantinopolis suffered almost the same that Jerusalem suffered about 100 years earlier.

            Cos Constantinapolis were very rich at that time and the crusade forgot their real mission passing by Byzantium. So, they decided to loot the richness of the city. Btw, Byzantium was Orthodox. And of course that's a big black dirt in the history of the Christianity.
            Time is an ocean in a storm

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            • #66
              That's what I want to say, the real cause of crusades, especialy for the IV war was robbery of rich civilizations such as Byzantine and Arab.
              With Faith in God,
              For King and Fatherland!

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Labud_NS View Post
                That's what I want to say, the real cause of crusades, especialy for the IV war was robbery of rich civilizations such as Byzantine and Arab.
                Name me a war that isn't about stealing someone else's resources.
                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

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                • #68
                  There are few wars that isn't about stealing someone else's resources (for example I Balkan war). But those wars are few. And those wars are not justified. Only two kind of wars are justified: defensive wars and liberating wars.
                  With Faith in God,
                  For King and Fatherland!

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                  • #69
                    labud,

                    Only two kind of wars are justified: defensive wars and liberating wars.
                    that's not good enough. by 1945 nazi germany was fighting a defensive war, and i'd still say that wasn't justified by a long shot.

                    as for liberating wars, one's definition of liberation may not be another's...

                    you need to look at wars on a case-by-case basis, and through the concepts of jus en bello and jus ad bellum.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      labud,



                      that's not good enough. by 1945 nazi germany was fighting a defensive war, and i'd still say that wasn't justified by a long shot.

                      as for liberating wars, one's definition of liberation may not be another's...

                      you need to look at wars on a case-by-case basis, and through the concepts of jus en bello and jus ad bellum.
                      You're right about that we need to look at wars case-by-case. But, when I say defensive war, I mean the defensive war in it's roots.;)
                      With Faith in God,
                      For King and Fatherland!

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by astralis View Post

                        as for liberating wars, one's definition of liberation may not be another's...
                        Depends also on what exactly it is that you are liberating;)
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          About the only thing that can be said about the Crusades was that it was a mess from beginning to end.
                          This can be rightly said- with a very few very famous exceptions- about any war in history.

                          War is a chaotic beast.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            This can be rightly said- with a very few very famous exceptions- about any war in history.
                            Wan'na start a thread about the exceptions?
                            When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Veni Vidi Vici View Post
                              At the time the Arabs had were more cultured and technolgicaly advanced then the crusaders. The arabs made great contributions to science and mathematics as well as other technoligies and arts. Cities controled by arabs at the time were actually much more comfortable then their european counterparts. You'd never know it today eh?
                              To name a few cordoba, toledo, granada, baghdad, damascus are the few that spring to mind.

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                              • #75
                                "Well, now, if hte enemy culture was totally superior, just how did it manage to lose Jerusalem the first time 'round?

                                Oh, there were several/many areas where the muslims had it over the christians. The claim of "total superiority" is unjustified, IMO."

                                well maybe they lost it the same way they lost spain, which was that they had more of their attention on making their lands better and less effert put into the army (i also know that at the time in spain muslims were begining to divide, but thats a different matter) whereas the ottoman empire was a bit of both,
                                "The Ottomans were the first state to maintain a standing army in Europe since the Roman Empire. The Janissaries have been likened to the Roman Praetorian Guard and they had no equivalent in the Christian armies of the time, where the feudal lords raised troops during wartime"

                                that statemeant shows two things, first that islam (well ottomans at least) were more advanced in military and second that the ottomans put a lot of effort into expanding rather than increasing status as a place of culture and
                                knowledge as al andalus (islamic spain) did.

                                i have been reading most of the threads on islam and i find that when anyone says something like islam was more advanced people always seem to mock the idea, without knowing any of the facts, i mean we all know about some of the other great empires like rome and persia, and i am not say islam was better in every aspect from its rivaling medival empires, but if you do some reading you will be fairly suprised as to what the muslims did in some places such as spain. i am NOT saying that you have to read about it to understand the time period but its a good read and was very inspiring for me. (sorry for the sp)

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