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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jonathan Locke
    I wonder, if the Pope was the one that led the Crusades, how come the Bible says that killing poeple is wrong, even if they are "infidels"? Was the world back then so ignorant that they could not see with their eyes the massacre they were comitting? i consider the crusades the first Holocaust
    The Koran say's the same thing, and there are more extremist islamic terror groups than any others, it's not often that you see Christians flying planes into building's is it?!!

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    • #32
      If only the different Christian sects could come together and fight against our modern day common enemy, which is Islam

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Metak
        The Koran say's the same thing, and there are more extremist islamic terror groups than any others, it's not often that you see Christians flying planes into building's is it?!!
        Why should they? They have bombs to drop from their planes and missles to launch from far away, with a leader claiming to fight for god (among other things)

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        • #34
          And when was the last time the US intentionally dropped a bomb into a skyscraper full of civilians?

          Oh....

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          • #35
            Whats the deal with this move "Kingdom of Heaven". How biased is it? Has anyone seen it yet?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by M21Sniper
              And when was the last time the US intentionally dropped a bomb into a skyscraper full of civilians?
              World War 2, although it were ordinary houses, not skyscrapers

              After that there weren't intentional murders, but a lot of death civilians as part of the collateral damage

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              • #37
                Everyone bombed civvies in WWII....long before the US became involved.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by M21Sniper
                  Everyone bombed civvies in WWII....long before the US became involved.
                  Sure, I don't want to say that all were playing nice except the USA; just that the USA did some of the same dirty things too.

                  Others certainly did much more horrible things, but the USA are not without some guilt.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Watcher
                    Sure, I don't want to say that all were playing nice except the USA; just that the USA did some of the same dirty things too.

                    Others certainly did much more horrible things, but the USA are not without some guilt.
                    What we did, was moral. If you would like to debate it, Im game.

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                    • #40
                      A good point was raised regarding the bombing of civilians in WWII, although I'm not sure this thread is the most appropriate place to debate it. Certainly not to single out the US in WWII, the Germans and Japanese started deliberate bombing of civilian targets. The British were less apologetic about it, with their 'area bombing' strategy. If anything the US was most insistant on at least trying to target strategic 'assets' rather than civilians in general. However, Dresden and Hiroshima had been cities that had not generally been targetted before being used for 'demonstrations' of devestation. 'Morality' isn't really the point IMHO, as it is not universal. Cannibals would say it's 'moral' for them to kill and eat other human beings. But I am curious as to the basis for the distinction, between say Hiroshima and 9/11. Is it the method (military bomber / nuclear bomb vs. hijacked civilian passenger plane), the target (entire city vs. large office towers), the overall context (open total war vs. 'peacetime') or the objective (total defeat of wartime opponent vs. forcing a policy change in a 'political' opponent)?

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                      • #41
                        someone make use of it

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                        • #42
                          The Crusades were a defensive action against the Arabs who were invading Christian lands. IMO The Crusades were a good idea but horribly executed.

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                          • #43
                            The Crusades were a defensive action against the Arabs who were invading Christian lands. IMO The Crusades were a good idea but horribly executed.
                            the crusades were a series of wasteful military actions initiated by a pope who was eager to consolidate his power and further extend his secular political might over the rising power of the kings. the kings themselves supported the crusades mostly because they wanted to send off their troublemakers and their nobles that would otherwise challenge their power. each king had their own personal and political reasons, for going, too. in the end, it was hardly an example of "united christianity" fighting for reasons of pure religious fervor. common soldiers and knights were told that by fighting for god they would gain their martyrdom and a free ticket in heaven, something they felt would be hard to get into because most of them could not afford indulgences.

                            the extent to which the crusaders felt they were on a "defensive action" can be seen by what they did to the people, both the byzantines and the christians in the region, whom they were supposed to be "defending."

                            the byzantines and those christians soon had a new saying: "better than the turban of the turk than the tiara of the pope."
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by EricTheRed
                              The Crusades were a defensive action against the Arabs who were invading Christian lands. IMO The Crusades were a good idea but horribly executed.
                              Untrue. Some time before 1095, when Pope Urban II preached the First Crusade at Clermont in France, the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I (r. 1081-1118 AD) had petitioned the West for aid from the West. The cause was the Seljuk Turks , not Arabs, that had overrun Asia Minor after their stunning victory over the Byzantine Army and Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes at Manzikert in 1071 AD. In the insuing period of court intrigue in Constantinople, the Turks set up a sultanate on the Anatolian plateau that the Byzantines were unable to dislodge. Alexius, pressed on numerous fronts during the 1080s and 1090s, appealed for aid.

                              However, the greatest Muslim danger to the Holy Land had come much earlier. Caliph al-Hakim, one of the Fatimid rulers of Egypt, has been assessed by one scholar as 'a psychopath, ruling by whim and terror.' He murdered his personal servants, his senior officials and military leaders; he issued and rescinded illogical orders whenever the fancy took him. He also attacked Christian and Jewish communities as he pleased and in AD 1009 he ordered the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. News of this outrage reached Europe and undoubtedly helped to stimulate interest in the idea of freeing the Holy Land from the grip of the infidel - the unbeliever. [1]

                              1. Harris, Roberta L. The World of the Bible. 1995, Thames and Hudson Ltd,
                              London. p 175

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                              • #45
                                ok then Turks. The point is the pope didnt wake up one day and say. I feel like killing some innocent muslims and have not done anything. The Turks were taking Christian land and needed to be stoped.

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