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Thread: Lockmart wins CEV contract

  1. #1
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    Lockmart wins CEV contract

    Well, it's settled. Lockmart won the bid for the next generation spacecraft to succeed the Shuttle. The initial $4 Billion will be to to develop and build two new vehicles- one manned, and one unmanned variant for cargo lifting to the ISS. There is a follow-on $3.5 Billion for additional copies (depending on NASA req's and the re-usability of the CEV), and another $750 Million for sustainment.

    First manned flight is expected in 2012-2014. The Orion CEV will be boosted by a family of boosters derived from the Shuttle boosters called ARES. It will carry 6 astronauts to the ISS or 4 to the moon.

    The Orion will be the basis for a series of long-duration moon missions beginning sometime around 2018-2020. These missions will be the precursors to a Mars mission. The intent is to spend 6 months or so on the moon per mission, similar to the current Space Station missions in duration.

    The vehicle will sit atop the booster similar to the Saturn 5 configuration for safety reasons. Being above the booster, it will not be affected by falling ice and debris like the shuttle, and it will have the ability to separate and abort during a launch failure. The goal is a 10 fold increase in safety over the Shuttle.

    This will be a disappointment for Boeing and Northrup Grumman, who were in competition with Lockmart for the contract, and were considered by many to be the favorites. This will be Lockmarts first time as the prime on a manned spacecraft.

    So congratulations to Lockmart, and hope this will be a successful program.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    Well, it's settled. Lockmart won the bid for the next generation spacecraft to succeed the Shuttle. The initial $4 Billion will be to to develop and build two new vehicles- one manned, and one unmanned variant for cargo lifting to the ISS. There is a follow-on $3.5 Billion for additional copies (depending on NASA req's and the re-usability of the CEV), and another $750 Million for sustainment.

    First manned flight is expected in 2012-2014. The Orion CEV will be boosted by a family of boosters derived from the Shuttle boosters called ARES. It will carry 6 astronauts to the ISS or 4 to the moon.

    The Orion will be the basis for a series of long-duration moon missions beginning sometime around 2018-2020. These missions will be the precursors to a Mars mission. The intent is to spend 6 months or so on the moon per mission, similar to the current Space Station missions in duration.

    The vehicle will sit atop the booster similar to the Saturn 5 configuration for safety reasons. Being above the booster, it will not be affected by falling ice and debris like the shuttle, and it will have the ability to separate and abort during a launch failure. The goal is a 10 fold increase in safety over the Shuttle.

    This will be a disappointment for Boeing and Northrup Grumman, who were in competition with Lockmart for the contract, and were considered by many to be the favorites. This will be Lockmarts first time as the prime on a manned spacecraft.

    So congratulations to Lockmart, and hope this will be a successful program.

    Back to the Moon...wohooooooooooooooo cant wait to see Orion unveiled. I can still remember watching as a boy when Apollo 11 landed the Eagle. What a feat.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 01 Sep 06, at 19:02.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    ...I can still remember watching as a boy when Apollo 11 landed the Eagle.
    Me too, like it was yesterday. Lol. You're older than I thought...

    I hope the public can get behind the space program again like we were back then. Those were exciting days.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    This will be a disappointment for Boeing and Northrup Grumman, who were in competition with Lockmart for the contract, and were considered by many to be the favorites.
    Disappointed is an understatement. We'll be out of the space business. I don't know why we or Northrop even bid on any space/defence contracts anymore.
    Last edited by jgetti; 01 Sep 06, at 19:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    I hope the public can get behind the space program again like we were back then. Those were exciting days.
    I agree 100%. Unfortunately though, the general public has the attention span of gnats. I think they'd rather go play with their X-box. Even some of my family and friends are about as concerned with what humanity can achieve as they are about where their poop goes when they flush the toilet.

    As extremely dissapointed (but not surprised) as I am with losing the contract, I'm very excited to see we're finally going to stretch our legs out and do something beyond low orbit.
    Last edited by jgetti; 01 Sep 06, at 19:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    Well, it's settled. Lockmart won the bid for the next generation spacecraft to succeed the Shuttle. The initial $4 Billion will be to to develop and build two new vehicles- one manned, and one unmanned variant for cargo lifting to the ISS. There is a follow-on $3.5 Billion for additional copies (depending on NASA req's and the re-usability of the CEV), and another $750 Million for sustainment.

    First manned flight is expected in 2012-2014. The Orion CEV will be boosted by a family of boosters derived from the Shuttle boosters called ARES. It will carry 6 astronauts to the ISS or 4 to the moon.

    The Orion will be the basis for a series of long-duration moon missions beginning sometime around 2018-2020. These missions will be the precursors to a Mars mission. The intent is to spend 6 months or so on the moon per mission, similar to the current Space Station missions in duration.

    The vehicle will sit atop the booster similar to the Saturn 5 configuration for safety reasons. Being above the booster, it will not be affected by falling ice and debris like the shuttle, and it will have the ability to separate and abort during a launch failure. The goal is a 10 fold increase in safety over the Shuttle.

    This will be a disappointment for Boeing and Northrup Grumman, who were in competition with Lockmart for the contract, and were considered by many to be the favorites. This will be Lockmarts first time as the prime on a manned spacecraft.

    So congratulations to Lockmart, and hope this will be a successful program.
    I didnt even know Grumman was still in business.

    Probably not after this though...lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgetti
    ...We'll be out of the space business. I don't know why we or Northrop even bid on any space/defence contracts anymore.
    jgetti- I think Boeing will be in the heavy lift business for a long time, the Deltas are the workhorse of the industry. Boeing is still the prime on the ISS and the Ground Based Missile Defense- really, all the missile systems are going strong. JDAM and JHMCS are huge successes, etc. There is a hell of a lot that Boeing contributes to defense.

    As far as aircraft, I have always considered Boeing as the top of the pile in what they are best at- commercial airliners, bombers, AEW&C, tankers, transports, etc. The large AC- Boeing was never a serious builder of Fighters before the mergers. And even though Lockmart is the prime on the Raptor, Boeing still builds half the plane. The "Monica" was just plain ugly, lol. I'm glad it wasn't chosen, to be honest.

    Boeing will continue to play a huge role in our space programs, I'm sure the main engines for the Orion will still be built by Boeing, and with Boeing's experience on the ISS, they will be in the catbird seat for the moon base.

    Can't win'em all...
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    I didnt even know Grumman was still in business.

    Probably not after this though...lol.
    I don't think we have to hold any benefits for them just yet, lol. After all, they are still the prime on the Virginia Class Subs, the leading maker of radar systems in the world, the largest shipbuilder in the world, and the only one capable of building Nimitz-class (or CVX) carriers...

    I really did think that the Boeing-Northrop team would win the CEV bid though. I can sympathize with jgetti's frustration- Lockmart has won 3 of the biggest prizes in recent years.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Northrop is also pretty advanced in laser technology.
    Check here http://www.st.northropgrumman.com/ca...iew/first.html

    How can we forget the Skyguard, THEL,Nautilus,Alpha,MIRACL,Navy ARPA laser among their COIL and solid state laser accomplishments.They're also playing a part in the ABL program.Anyways Northrop is the 3rd largest defense contractor and built our B-2 and are doing well with UAV's/UCAV's.I still consider them a serious contendor.
    Last edited by Shadowsided; 01 Sep 06, at 20:21.

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    I actually wanted the Boeing/Northrup Grumman team to win. Nothing against Lockheed's proposal, it was just history. Lockheed has already won two major contracts (F-22 and F-35) and pretty much secured the entire USAF fighter fleet will be supplied by them for the next 30 years. They also had the contract on the X-33, but that was miserable failure so I'm not so sure on how well the company will perform with the Orion. I thought maybe a fresh team with little hatred against them by politicans would be a good choice to go with. But meh, this is the government....

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    As far as aircraft, I have always considered Boeing as the top of the pile in what they are best at- commercial airliners, bombers, AEW&C, tankers, transports, etc.
    When you're speaking of Mother Boeing, you're probably right. We at McDonnell Douglas, though, don't see things very rosy at all. We may have actually gotten to work on part of the Orion program.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    The large AC- Boeing was never a serious builder of Fighters before the mergers.
    McDonnell was THE premier fighter company in the US into the mid-late 80's. Every new contract since excepting the SuperHornet upgrade was either lost or stripped away. In 1989, we had the new F-15E program, AV-8B, T-45, F/A-18, A-12, YF-23, CALF, ASTOVL, hypersonics programs, etc. etc. etc. There was more work here than we had people or room for.

    Now AV-8 is over, T-45 is almost over, F/A-18 A-D is over, A-12 was stripped, YF-23 lost to YF-22, CALF and ASTOVL turned into JSF which was lost TWICE, X-45 went from a heritage McDonnell only contract through DARPA to a competition with Northrop/Grumman, to being essentially cancelled, and oh by the way, Lockheed now has a UCAV program that USAF is looking at, the Comanche program (though mother Boeing) was stripped. C-17 isn't a fighter program but it's all but condemned to death. We've been surviving on the SuperHornet and F-15 foreign sales for a freakin decade. It doesn't help that every time we go to war, Dick Cheney and his cronies cancel another of our programs. Hope we don't go to war with anyone new any time soon, or they might cancel Super Hornet!
    LockMart on the other hand can do no wrong. It doesn't matter how far behind schedule or over budget their programs go, they NEVER GET CANCELLED.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    And even though Lockmart is the prime on the Raptor, Boeing still builds half the plane.
    Even though that's defence, Heritage McDonnell has seen absolutely nothing of that contract either,, that's all Mother Boeing, none in St. Louis or other heritage McDonnell sites. We have no engineering effort on that whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    The "Monica" was just plain ugly, lol. I'm glad it wasn't chosen, to be honest.
    I'm glad that hunk of crap wasn't picked too. But again that was a mother Boeing aircraft. The original McDonnell JSF, I think would have been an outstanding aircraft, but the Government prohibited use of the GE F-136 engine late in the game, our vertical lift design then wouldn't work, we lost and we sold out to mother Boeing.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    Boeing will continue to play a huge role in our space programs, I'm sure the main engines for the Orion will still be built by Boeing, and with Boeing's experience on the ISS, they will be in the catbird seat for the moon base.
    My understanding is that a lot of the engine work disappeared with the Rocketdyne sale. Perhaps I'm wrong on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    Can't win'em all...
    For heritage McDonnell, the few we can win will just be taken away. What new defence contracts will even be available to bid on in the forseeable future? Unless there's a competition for a new regional bomber, there's nothing left. Our space programs and all our defence programs are now under our Integrated Defence Systems division. We may not be out of the space business yet, but we'll be out of the defence airframe business if something doesn't change pretty damn quick.
    Last edited by jgetti; 01 Sep 06, at 21:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgetti
    McDonnell was THE premier fighter company in the US into the mid-late 80's. Every new contract since excepting the SuperHornet upgrade was either lost or stripped away. In 1989, we had the new F-15E program, AV-8B, T-45, F/A-18, A-12, YF-23, CALF, ASTOVL, hypersonics programs, etc. etc. etc. There was more work here than we had people or room for.
    I keep forgetting you're McDonnell before you're Boeing. All Boeing's expertise in Fighters has come through acquisitions, not something that was a traditional part of Boeing. And the big benefit to Boeing wrt the McDonnell merger was to eliminate the competition on the commercial side. Fighters were just an area where Boeing had no expertise, and I think it was an area that was neglected on purpose. "If it survives, fine- but if it doesn't, that's okay too."

    That's why NG is such a good partner. If the Navy ever gets their sh*t together and gets a new dedicated frame, you guys are a shoe-in. (Not much chance of that, though)
    Quote Originally Posted by jgetti
    My understanding is that a lot of that disappeared with the Rocketdyne sale. Perhaps I'm wrong on that.
    I stand corrected- you're right, that went to Pratt.
    Quote Originally Posted by jgetti
    For heritage McDonnell, the few we can win will just be taken away. What new defence contracts will even be available to bid on in the forseeable future? Unless there's a competition for a new regional bomber, there's nothing left. We may not be out of the space business yet, but we'll be out of the defence airframe business if something doesn't change pretty damn quick.
    Do you have a piece of the UCAV-N? I think the leading contender for the regional bomber (if it ever materializes) would be Lockmart again, unless you guys can come up with something really attractive out of the YF-23 or B-1B.

    I hate to see you guys lose out of the space biz though, "Mr. Mac" and the St. Louis plant has been a fixture since the very earliest days of spaceflight. It'd be a real shame to see that go away.
    Last edited by highsea; 01 Sep 06, at 21:55.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by highsea
    I think the leading contender for the regional bomber (if it ever materializes) would be Lockmart again, unless you guys can come up with something really attractive out of the YF-23 or B-1B.

    I hate to see you guys lose out of the space biz though, "Mr. Mac" and the St. Louis plant has been a fixture since the very earliest days of spaceflight. It'd be a real shame to see that go away.
    Well I know Northrop Grumman was pitching a version of the YF-23 as a regional bomber, but I don't think we'd necessarily be part of that if it materialized. I know we pitched several things for the regional bomber RFI when it came out, though I'm not sure what all we pitched. I know there was the B-1R, a brand new design concept, and something that included ICBM's with multiple conventional warheads. I have no idea if anything is even going on with that effort currently.

    It's amazing the amount of pride that still exists in heritage McDonnell Douglas in spite of our misfortunes of recent years, but along with that there's an aweful lot of bitterness as well, myself included as you've probably gathered. There's actually a guy who still works here that worked on the original Gemini program. Now that guy's got some war stories from the glory days of MCAIR.

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    This is off subject but did anyone hear news that Energia(Russian space company) have problems to find kosmonauts?
    Last time they get only 10 people who want to go in space, if you think you will see that many of Ruskie kosmonauts are old guys.
    If they put better salery they can get more people it seem that some guys give millions to get in space and others arent interested.
    So X-box seem slave Russians too

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