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  • Nazi Germany CV wreckage possibly found

    Wreck of Nazis' Graf Zeppelin May Be Found

    Jul 27, 8:50 AM (ET)

    By VANESSA GERA

    WARSAW, Poland (AP) - Poland's Navy said Thursday that it has identified a sunken shipwreck in the Baltic Sea as almost certainly being Nazi Germany's only aircraft carrier, the Graf Zeppelin - a find that promises to shed light on a 59-year-old mystery surrounding the ship's fate.

    The Polish oil company Petrobaltic discovered the shipwreck earlier this month on the sea floor about 38 miles north of the northern port city of Gdansk.

    Suspecting it could be the wreckage of the Graf Zeppelin, the Polish Navy sent out a hydrographic survey vessel on Tuesday, said Lt. Cmdr. Bartosz Zajda, a spokesman for the Polish Navy.

    "We are 99 percent sure - even 99.9 percent - that these details point unambiguously to the Graf Zeppelin," said Dariusz Beczek, the Navy commander of the vessel, the ORP Arctowski, said soon after returning to port Thursday morning after the two-day expedition.

    During their time at sea, naval experts used a remote-controlled underwater robot and sonar photographic and video equipment to gather digital images of the 850-foot-long ship, Zajda said.

    "The analyses of the sonar pictures and the comparison to historical documents show that it is the Graf Zeppelin," Zajda told The Associated Press.

    Zajda said a number of characteristics of the shipwreck exactly matched those of the Graf Zeppelin, including the ship's measurements and a special device that lifted aircraft onto the launch deck from a lower deck.

    The naval experts were still waiting to find the name "Graf Zeppelin" on one the ship's sides before declaring with absolute certainty that it is the German carrier, Zajda said.

    The Graf Zeppelin was Germany's only aircraft carrier during World War II. It was launched on Dec. 8, 1938, but never saw action. After Germany's defeat in 1945, the Soviet Union took control of the ship, but it was last seen in 1947 and since then the ship's fate has been shrouded in mystery.

    Navy researchers plan to continue to examine the material they gathered during their two days at sea, but the analysis of the shipwreck will then fall to historians and other researchers, Zajda said.

    The Graf Zeppelin will almost certain remain on the sea bed, he said.

    "Technically it's impossible to pull it out of the water," Zajda said.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

  • #2
    Hi Guys,

    This is certainly going to allow for some useful contributions to military history and general speculation on the nature of happenings in the immediate Post War World.

    Question: does anybody know the depth of those waters? Might conditions allow for diving?

    I talked to an ancient, possibly mad man many, many Moons ago who insisted it was deliberately sunk by people who did not want the Russians to put it to good use. Guess were gonna find out!

    Regards,

    William
    Pharoh was pimp but now he is dead. What are you going to do today?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Swift Sword
      I talked to an ancient, possibly mad man many, many Moons ago who insisted it was deliberately sunk by people who did not want the Russians to put it to good use. Guess were gonna find out!
      Your friend is likely thinking of Japanese submarines:
      The U.S. Navy boarded and recovered 24 submarines including the three I-400 submarines, taking them to Sasebo Bay to study them. While there, they received a message that the Soviets were sending an inspection team to examine the submarines. To keep the technology out of the hands of the Soviets, Operation Road’s End was instituted. Most of the submarines were taken to a position designated as Point Deep Six, about 40 miles (60 km) west from Nagasaki and off the island of Goto-Rettō, were packed with charges of C-2 explosive and destroyed.

      Four remaining submarines (I 400, I 401, I 201 and I 203 which achieved speeds double those of American submarines), were sailed to Hawaii by US Navy technicians for further inspection. Upon completion of the inspections, the submarines were scuttled in the waters off Kalaeloa near Oahu in Hawaii by torpedoes from the American submarine USS Cabezon on May 31, 1946. The reason for the scuttling is apparently that Russian scientists were again demanding access to the submarines. The wreckage of I 401 was re-discovered by the Pisces submarines deep-sea submarines of the Hawaii Undersea Research Laboratory in March 2005 at a depth of 820 meters. Source

      Wikipedia has this to say on Graf Zepplin's fate:

      For many years no other information about the ship's fate was available. There was some speculation that it was very unlikely that the hull made it to Leningrad, as it was argued that the arrival of such a large and unusual vessel would have been noticed by Western intelligence services. This assumption seemed to imply that the hull was lost at sea during transfer between Swinemünde and Leningrad. One account concluded that it struck a mine north of Rügen on 15 August 1947, but Rügen, west of Swinemünde, is not on the sailing route to Leningrad. Further north, in the Gulf of Finland, a heavily-mined area difficult for Western observers to monitor, seemed more likely.

      After the opening of the Soviet archives, new light was shed on the mystery. It appears that the carrier was towed to Leningrad. There, after unloading, it was designated as "PO-101" (Floating Base Number 101). The Russians hoped that the carrier could be repaired in Leningrad's shipyards (those in Szczecin were destroyed). When this proved impractical, the ship was towed out to sea, back to the Swinemünde area. There, on 16 August 1947, it was used as a practice target for Soviet ships and aircraft. Allegedly, the Soviets installed aerial bombs on the flight deck, in hangars and even inside the funnels (to simulate a load of combat munitions), and then dropped bombs from aircraft, fired shells, and shot torpedoes into it. This assault would both comply with the Tripartite mandate (albeit late) and provide the Soviets with experience in sinking an aircraft carrier. By this point, the Cold War had well begun, and the Soviets were well aware of the large numbers and central importance of aircraft carriers in the US Navy, which in the event of an actual war between the Soviet Union and America would be targets of high strategic importance. Hence, experience in sinking carriers by aircraft was much more valuable in 1947 than before 1945. After being hit by 24 bombs and projectiles, the ship did not sink and had to be finished off by torpedoes. Source
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Top Hatter,

        Not a friend per se, but we were forced into profitably using information supplied by said source on several occassions and it was reasonably high grade. Like I said, he may have been clinically mad.

        Moving right along, it seems that the wreck in question is in @ 275 feet of water. That is getting a bit deep and with the danger of UXO it would take a pretty talented diver to get a good look and perhaps recover artifacts (AFIAK, I have not seen an ocean since the 1990s and live well above sea level).

        If we wait a minute, it is quite possible that the National Geographic folks might have a Bob Ballard special on the subject at hand :) .

        William
        Pharoh was pimp but now he is dead. What are you going to do today?

        Comment


        • #5
          IMO It will shed new light on exactly what happened to her. There were many a myth as to where she sank and why she sank. Some say she never reached Lenningrad and sank due to mines while other say the Soviets sank her diliberately in a "sinkex" excercise owing to practice on how to sink an American carrier. Or she sank due to being top heavy from all of the machinery Russia confiscated from Germany and was transferring back to the USSR. Guess they will find out when she is explored in depth. Nice to know some of these myths will come to light instead of rampant speculation. It will also show that Germany was slowly coming around to the fact that carriers would dominate the seas after the eclipse of the big guns and naval air power would rule the remaining months/years of WWII.
          Last edited by Dreadnought; 27 Jul 06,, 18:52.
          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dreadnought
            .....It will also show that Germany was slowly coming around to the fact that carriers would dominate the seas after the eclipse of the big guns and naval air power would rule the remaining months/years of WWII.....
            In a view or two, I think everyone, Germany included, was involved with that evolution ALTHOUGH Germany had some pride elements that could block the technology.

            Ie, witness the Alaska class CB's. Start building them because of one threat. Take away from the building to do more carriers. Finish building them at the end of the war but not have a threat for them and have them rather outclassed by the air power that has materialized.

            Germany: start off with surface ships and slight the U-Boats. End the war with the U-Boats being the major asset and not too much on the surface ships.

            But, two things. First of all, remember that Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine weren't the best of friends. Off memory, I believe that Doneitz had to pull teeth to get much airsupport. Wasn't Condor the only maritime aircraft and while it has a place in history, how big of a spot? Which brings us to a second point.

            Atlantic, Pacific. Different wars, different ways to go about things, different goals. After all, wasn't Ranger the biggest carrier we had in the Atlantic? What was the purpose of at sea air power in the Atlantic? Mostly, to protect merchant shipping. Blimps, two and four engine maritime patrol. Get out there, spend a long time up, find the U-Boat, sink it. Put a Hurricane on the deck of a merchant for a one way mission to keep the U-Boat busy while the convoy gets away. Escort carriers to escort the convoys, stop the U-Boats.

            Sure, there were carrier actions against surface ships, similar to what was in the Pacific ............ but once Germany's focus shifted from surface raiders to submarines to starve the other guy out, those similar actions faded (I believe, that particular aspect hasn't been an area of study).

            It is rather the difference between a continental and a maritime power. Japan and the US are maritime powers but WWII Germany would probably be seen more as a continental power. Hence, there is less motivation to focus on a Navy to project that power but rather, use the Navy to support the continental strength by decreasing the other guy's continental strength.
            ------------------------------------------------------------
            (Oz is getting the stuffing beaten out of him by a Jekyl-Hyde type. As the sun sets, "Sun's down; Rules change!" and Oz morphs into a werewolf and changes the tables.--(w,stte), BtVs "Beauty and the Beasts"(?))

            Comment


            • #7
              Im hoping they will post pics on the Net of her present condition. :)
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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