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  • PLA AD thread

    no actually, I believe what you say a lot more than sinodefense, which is why I asked you again to make sure I got hold of what you are saying. Also, I was wondering about HHQ-16 I guess (or whatever you call that is supposedly going on 054A), as in whether there would be a land based version that is using similar technology.

    HHQ-16? never heard of it.

    You are totally confuse between naval systems and land based AD systems. Here is something I posted before


    Chinese do not view SAM as a single unit, they view it as a combination of 5 major components, they are: Homing modules, Warhead compartments, Control Module and Engine compartments. That means when they upgrade, they work on each compartments instead of the entire SAM.


    As for MPU-1 vs MPU-2...........

    where to begain.........


    Let it this way, S-300PMU1 system was POS, it was..........how should I put it.... marketware! the 4 battaries they imported did not live to the marketing hype. To please Beijing, the Russians offered a free, yes free assembly right and General Cao say no. PMU2 was a much improved system, however, PLA was not happy about the the hyped Track-Via-Missile installed on the PMU2, because PLA already have "something much better". however it will take some time before the HQ-16 can enter field service and they really needed a long range system, they bought more PMU2, but change the radar system to that of a local produce one (passive guidance, operating in the 2 - 18 GHz range) anyways, I suggest you read up on HT-233 phased array fire-control radar
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

  • #2
    Heh. The S-300 series has been offered to India for combining into a national system with ATBM capability. India has instead sat off waiting for the Arrow and is now running its own project for a LRAAM. Makes sense I guess, reading your note. Its interesting to see that the S-400 is still nowhere ready afaik. BTW, what happened to all the radars and thingmajigs sold with the PMU2's if China was planning to incorporate its own radar? Did China get source code access & integration assistance? Wouldnt the Russian radars be wasted? Interesting stuff.
    Last edited by Archer; 24 Jul 06,, 10:33.
    Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by xinhui
      HHQ-16? never heard of it.

      You are totally confuse between naval systems and land based AD systems. Here is something I posted before


      Chinese do not view SAM as a single unit, they view it as a combination of 5 major components, they are: Homing modules, Warhead compartments, Control Module and Engine compartments. That means when they upgrade, they work on each compartments instead of the entire SAM.


      As for MPU-1 vs MPU-2...........

      where to begain.........


      Let it this way, S-300PMU1 system was POS, it was..........how should I put it.... marketware! the 4 battaries they imported did not live to the marketing hype. To please Beijing, the Russians offered a free, yes free assembly right and General Cao say no. PMU2 was a much improved system, however, PLA was not happy about the the hyped Track-Via-Missile installed on the PMU2, because PLA already have "something much better". however it will take some time before the HQ-16 can enter field service and they really needed a long range system, they bought more PMU2, but change the radar system to that of a local produce one (passive guidance, operating in the 2 - 18 GHz range) anyways, I suggest you read up on HT-233 phased array fire-control radar
      I was referring to the SAM that they are fitting on 054A (ironically referred to as HQ-16 by kanwa/Chinese forum). Reading what you mentionned about the 5 major components, so I'm simply asking which AD systems would it have similar components to?

      I did google it up, it seems the only reference to HT-233 on the returned results was whatever sinodefence posted.

      Comment


      • #4
        well, guess where DongFeng of Sino-defence got his information and photo regarding HT-233? Me! check out the credit from one of the photo.

        Everyone brought the hype about TVM after the 1991 gulf war. it just need some muturity that is all.

        so I'm simply asking which AD systems would it have similar components to?
        Not sure what are getting here. to what? As I stated before, Chinese don't view SAM as SAM, they view it as a system HT-233 act as a regional management node if you will, it control and manage information from other radars via a network and other HT-233 as well, it was never mean to operate by itself. In a very unlikely event of HT-233 got knock out by SEAD, another one will take it place. PLA don't spend all the time and money to lay fibre optic cable all over the place for nothing. To make myself clear, HT-233 also manages other older missiles like that of HQ-2 etc as in a network. A SAM is just a piece of the pizzle.


        Here is something for you to think about. All the latest AD capable ships of PLAN are assigned to either North and South Sea fleet, but not East sea fleet (the one facing TW) and yet East Sea fleet got all the kilos subs. To prevent a successfully first strike by PLA CM and BW in time of war, ROCN moved all their major surface ships to the opposite site of the island. If you are a ROC commander, which ML site you will hit first with to stop an invasion fleet and allow your airforce to pick off the boats?

        If CMC wants to send their fly boys to do dog fights with well-trained ROCAF pilots, they would disband PLANAF and combine it with PLAAF. Look at PLANAF's airfield, they are up north in Shanghai /Qiangdao and down south in Hainan areas, not Fujian.
        Last edited by xinhui; 25 Jul 06,, 00:54.
        “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

        Comment


        • #5
          Let's review this PLA daily article again and think TW.




          Early warning capability of highland radar stations enhanced by large margin

          PLA Daily 2006-07-10

            

            In the past several days, the reporter has visited all the air force radar positions above the snow line and at an altitude of about 5000 m on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau and felt that the radar troops stationed in high mountains are making landmark progresses in the great practice of promoting the revolution in military affairs with Chinese characteristics: With the phase in of new generations of equipment, the detecting means are being upgraded, the intelligence transmission has become more efficient and swift and the quality of the servicemen has been improved remarkably.

            According to the related departments of the PLA Air Force, with the hitting of an answer to the phenomenon of "high mountain information basin" due to the big gap between the conditions of highland radar stations and inland ones, the PLA Air Force has basically formed a new-type of modernized joint air situation early warning system combining active and inactive detection covering long, medium and near ranges at high, medium and low altitudes, thus shooting the nation's air defense early warning capability up to a higher level.

            By Tan Jie

            (July 10, PLA Daily)
          “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by xinhui
            well, guess where DongFeng of Sino-defence got his information and photo regarding HT-233? Me! check out the credit from one of the photo.

            Everyone brought the hype about TVM after the 1991 gulf war. it just need some muturity that is all.

            Not sure what are getting here. to what? As I stated before, Chinese don't view SAM as SAM, they view it as a system HT-233 act as a regional management node if you will, it control and manage information from other radars via a network and other HT-233 as well, it was never mean to operate by itself. In a very unlikely event of HT-233 got knock out by SEAD, another one will take it place. PLA don't spend all the time and money to lay fibre optic cable all over the place for nothing. To make myself clear, HT-233 also manages other older missiles like that of HQ-2 etc as in a network. A SAM is just a piece of the pizzle.


            Here is something for you to think about. All the latest AD capable ships of PLAN are assigned to either North and South Sea fleet, but not East sea fleet (the one facing TW) and yet East Sea fleet got all the kilos subs. To prevent a successfully first strike by PLA CM and BW in time of war, ROCN moved all their major surface ships to the opposite site of the island. If you are a ROC commander, which ML site you will hit first with to stop an invasion fleet and allow your airforce to pick off the boats?

            If CMC wants to send their fly boys to do dog fights with well-trained ROCAF pilots, they would disband PLANAF and combine it with PLAAF. Look at PLANAF's airfield, they are up north in Shanghai /Qiangdao and down south in Hainan areas, not Fujian.
            Cool, I was wondering where Dongfeng got his source too.

            Also, when you say "PLA" has something better than TVM. Are you referring to a different guidance or a superior TVM guidance?

            And when you say other radars, are you referring to all the new early warning radars that China has been developing lately like the YLC series? I'm guessing HT-233 would also be networked with AWACS?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by xinhui
              To prevent a successfully first strike by PLA CM and BW in time of war, ROCN moved all their major surface ships to the opposite site of the island. If you are a ROC commander, which ML site you will hit first with to stop an invasion fleet and allow your airforce to pick off the boats?
              What are the missions of these ships if they are deployed on the east side of the island? Are there still ships patrolling the Taiwan strait? Or Taiwan expects to use air power to wear down the invasion fleet and then kill the landing force (whatever that makes it through) on the beach head?
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

              Comment


              • #8
                As of today, PLA has complete SAM converge of the entire strait, so does ROC Army for that matter. Since ROCN moved their large surface ships to the opposite side of the strait, one of PLAN’s jobs is to prevent it from entering the strait from either ends in time of war. Since both PLAN (North and South) fleet will be deployed outside of the SAM converge area thus, strong AD ships are needed.

                Taiwan expects to use air power to wear down the invasion fleet and then kill the landing force
                No, they want to bomb assembly points (or Shanghai as some claims), create bottleneck at the port. They rely their long range MRL with cluster bombers to take care of the small boats. Copperhead for larger boats. The advantage of the MRL is that they are hidden in mountains and they don't need air field, nor worry about PLAAF AD's.
                “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Also, when you say "PLA" has something better than TVM. Are you referring to a different guidance or a superior TVM guidance
                  I mean None Russian TVM tech.

                  I'm guessing HT-233 would also be networked with AWACS?
                  One can make that assumption, I really don't think CMC's C4I can handle that type of management overhead at this point. To have AWAC link to to each AD management nodes? I really don't think PLA is that good, for one thing the latency is too great.

                  I read my posts again and they seems to be hitting all kind of directions. Please allow me to clearify:

                  1. HT-233 also control not just SAM but all upto Brigade Command / Control system also automates three E-SHORADS launchers and up to 27 air defence artillery gun units.

                  2. I posted "with HT-233 being marketed (with FT-2000) I don’t know what is that will affect the development path of both the HQ-2 and KS-1a systems."

                  SJ-202 Radar of HQ-2J might continue its upgrade path, or PLA might simply have HT-233 take over. We just don't know. Or PLA plans to use SJ-202 as baits for SEAD, since they have so many of them. And they did just that during the Indo-China war.

                  3. As for the ROCAF's anti-ships role, given the PLA AD network around Taiwan strait (Bryan C can follow up on this), and the limited mud mover they have, they petty give up that role now. even they can, they simplity does not have the time to knock out all the PLA radars to allow their attack to do their jobs on PLA's invasion fleet. Thus, they switched their target to assembly points.

                  4. Going back to mulitplayer concept or what other called high- and medium-range air defence systems (HIMADS), here is something I got from the good Col Blasko: While the SA-15 (Tor-m1) were assigned to ground force, it is actually managed by PLAAF personel and operates in conjunction with S-300, (suggestion of an AD management node) His reason, Tor-m1 provides close-in, low altiture coverage that S-300 is not capable of and this is necessary to complement for larger, longer -range system.
                  “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    new early warning radars that China has been developing lately like the YLC series?
                    Dude, know thy different between suveillance radar and target radars.
                    Attached Files
                    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by xinhui
                      I mean None Russian TVM tech.



                      One can make that assumption, I really don't think CMC's C4I can handle that type of management overhead at this point. To have AWAC link to to each AD management nodes? I really don't think PLA is that good, for one thing the latency is too great.

                      I read my posts again and they seems to be hitting all kind of directions. Please allow me to clearify:

                      1. HT-233 also control not just SAM but all upto Brigade Command / Control system also automates three E-SHORADS launchers and up to 27 air defence artillery gun units.

                      2. I posted "with HT-233 being marketed (with FT-2000) I don’t know what is that will affect the development path of both the HQ-2 and KS-1a systems."

                      SJ-202 Radar of HQ-2J might continue its upgrade path, or PLA might simply have HT-233 take over. We just don't know. Or PLA plans to use SJ-202 as baits for SEAD, since they have so many of them. And they did just that during the Indo-China war.

                      3. As for the ROCAF's anti-ships role, given the PLA AD network around Taiwan strait (Bryan C can follow up on this), and the limited mud mover they have, they petty give up that role now. even they can, they simplity does not have the time to knock out all the PLA radars to allow their attack to do their jobs on PLA's invasion fleet. Thus, they switched their target to assembly points.

                      4. Going back to mulitplayer concept or what other called high- and medium-range air defence systems (HIMADS), here is something I got from the good Col Blasko: While the SA-15 (Tor-m1) were assigned to ground force, it is actually managed by PLAAF personel and operates in conjunction with S-300, (suggestion of an AD management node) His reason, Tor-m1 provides close-in, low altiture coverage that S-300 is not capable of and this is necessary to complement for larger, longer -range system.

                      Your comments are more understandable now, cheers for the explanation- I was getting confused about how the HT233 could direct S-300 series SAM's. If I read you correctly now, the S-300 series FCR's and Surveillance radars didnt provide adequate Situational awareness & so thats being addressed by a HT-233 at the node. Presumably, this would be backed by a YLC series long range surveillance radar as well..

                      I can understand that the PLA might have been disappointed with the S-300 series radars- but they were not designed to serve as the nodal AD SA systems by themselves anyhow, so its kind of moot. And the initial variants, bar the PMU2 have limited anti TBM capability as well..I mean its kind of like the Su30 K vs the Su-30 MKK, both have excellent airframes and are potent aircraft, but the latter is more modern & covers the loopholes of the former etc ..(Irkutsk vs KNAAPO i know, just giving an example in terms of capability)
                      Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by xinhui
                        Dude, know thy different between suveillance radar and target radars.
                        Is the JYL1 a long range 3D radar or is it 2D with a height finding radar required?

                        If the former, then it can track targets at range as well..

                        Are you referring to Surv. vs Fire control radars?
                        Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by xinhui
                          One can make that assumption, I really don't think CMC's C4I can handle that type of management overhead at this point. To have AWAC link to to each AD management nodes? I really don't think PLA is that good, for one thing the latency is too great.

                          I read my posts again and they seems to be hitting all kind of directions. Please allow me to clearify:

                          1. HT-233 also control not just SAM but all upto Brigade Command / Control system also automates three E-SHORADS launchers and up to 27 air defence artillery gun units.

                          2. I posted "with HT-233 being marketed (with FT-2000) I don’t know what is that will affect the development path of both the HQ-2 and KS-1a systems."

                          SJ-202 Radar of HQ-2J might continue its upgrade path, or PLA might simply have HT-233 take over. We just don't know. Or PLA plans to use SJ-202 as baits for SEAD, since they have so many of them. And they did just that during the Indo-China war.

                          3. As for the ROCAF's anti-ships role, given the PLA AD network around Taiwan strait (Bryan C can follow up on this), and the limited mud mover they have, they petty give up that role now. even they can, they simplity does not have the time to knock out all the PLA radars to allow their attack to do their jobs on PLA's invasion fleet. Thus, they switched their target to assembly points.

                          4. Going back to mulitplayer concept or what other called high- and medium-range air defence systems (HIMADS), here is something I got from the good Col Blasko: While the SA-15 (Tor-m1) were assigned to ground force, it is actually managed by PLAAF personel and operates in conjunction with S-300, (suggestion of an AD management node) His reason, Tor-m1 provides close-in, low altiture coverage that S-300 is not capable of and this is necessary to complement for larger, longer -range system.
                          If HT-233 is getting marketted, doesn't that suggest PLA already has something better than HT-233?

                          well, also three gorges and major commerce areas. I guess that's where HF series comes in.

                          Now that you mentionned close-in coverage, I was just wondering how PLA makes use of systems like Yitian and FB-6A. Or whether they choose to make use of it at all.
                          Dude, know thy different between suveillance radar and target radars.
                          I read on YLC-2's description that it can handle multi-target tracking, so I figure it can send this information to HT-233.
                          Last edited by tphuang; 26 Jul 06,, 16:19.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Archer
                            Your comments are more understandable now, cheers for the explanation- I was getting confused about how the HT233 could direct S-300 series SAM's. If I read you correctly now, the S-300 series FCR's and Surveillance radars didnt provide adequate Situational awareness & so thats being addressed by a HT-233 at the node. Presumably, this would be backed by a YLC series long range surveillance radar as well..

                            I can understand that the PLA might have been disappointed with the S-300 series radars- but they were not designed to serve as the nodal AD SA systems by themselves anyhow, so its kind of moot. And the initial variants, bar the PMU2 have limited anti TBM capability as well..I mean its kind of like the Su30 K vs the Su-30 MKK, both have excellent airframes and are potent aircraft, but the latter is more modern & covers the loopholes of the former etc ..(Irkutsk vs KNAAPO i know, just giving an example in terms of capability)
                            Thanks, I have problems of gather my ideas and present them in a clear and accurate manner at times
                            “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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                            • #15
                              Major players of PLA's AD sector

                              Changfeng Electromechanical tech design instite (2nd Academy of China Aerospace Science and Technlogy Corporation [CASC] Zhongguo Hangtian Keji Jituan Gongsi)

                              Academy of Aerospace Solid Propulsion Tech (4th Academy) located in Xian Shaanxi

                              China Hexi Chemical and machinery company (6th Academy) located at Hothot, Inner Mongolia

                              Shanghai Academy of Space Flight Tech (8th Acvademy) located in Shanghai

                              China academy of space electronic technology (9th academy) located in Beijing

                              Aeorspace Time instrucment corporation (10th academy) located in Beijing with specalized in intertial nav systems, electrooptical productions, electrical and electronic components. Precision instruments, software and computer hardware.
                              “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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