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  • @Kansas What kind of experiences you have lived with Turks?? What is this racism, hatred... Any way...

    What Was The Demographic Data Before And After Relocation?

    The Armenian committee members always distort and exaggerate the facts about Armenian population before and after the Relocation Implementation. They try to create a basis for their false claims by using war records, official records, church statistics and, reports of foreign missionaries. Some of numbers that is given about the Armenian population in the Ottoman territories are sometimes exceed to the total Armenian population of the Diaspora.

    Armenian Population before the Relocation:

    There are many different claims about Armenian population in the Ottoman territories; some figures are as follow:


    1.British Annual Register 1917 1.056.000 (1)
    2.Patriarch Ormanyan 1.579.000 (2)
    3.The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1.800.000 (3) (In "Armenia and Armenians", Aslan states the Armenian population in Anatolia 920.000, in Clicia (Adana, Sis, Maras) 180.000, in the other Ottoman territories 700.000, total 1.800.000)
    4.German Priest Johannes Lepsius 1.600.000 (4)
    5.Cuinet 1.045.018 (5)
    6.The French Yellow Book 1.475.011 (6)
    7.The Armenian historian Basmajian 2.280.000 (7)
    8.Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan 1.150.000 (8)

    Official Ottoman census statistics are as follows:
    The Ottoman Directory of Statistics was founded in 1892 The first director of the branch was Nuri Bey. Between 1892-1897 a Jewish Ottoman, Fethi Franco was appointed for the duty. From 1897 until 1903, an Armenian director was in charge, called Migirdic Shabanyan. Later, Mr. Robert an American was appointed (1903-1908). Between, 1908-1914 Mehmet Behic was the general director. (9)

    As it is seen, in a very chaotic period when the Ottoman government was facing with the Armenian Issue on the international arena, the Ottoman Statistics were under the control of foreigners. At this point, the Ottoman statistics should be considered as the most objective documents about the Armenian population living in Ottoman territories.

    * Ottoman census statistics for 1893 1.001.465
    * Ottoman census statistics for 1906 1.120.748
    * Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1.221.850 (10)

    An evaluation of the three sources clarifies that, during the First World War, the Armenian population in the Ottoman territories was approximately 1.250.000.

    The numbers of the Armenians, subjected to relocation was controlled from their departure until their arrival, between June 9, 1915 and February 8, 1916. The figures below are taken from pertinent Ottoman documents (11):

    ....


    On the other hand, in the telegraph sent by the Director of Immigrants and Tribe Placement, ªükrü Bey on October 18, 1915 notified that "the number of the Armenians transported to Aleppo was about 100.000. (36) Meanwhile, it is understood from the records that an Armenian population of 120.000 people gathered in Diyarbakir as of September 18, 1915 and an Armenian population of 136.084 people gathered in Cizre as of September 28, 1915 to be sent to Musul and Zor region. (37) In a coded telegraph sent by ªükrü Bey from Nizip on November 3, 1915, it is expressed that transportation continued in a regular manner. (38)

    As it is from the figures given above, the Armenian population subjected to relocation was 438.758 and 382.148 of these safely reached their new destinations. (40)

    The number of casualties had occurred as follows: 500 people on the road between Erzurum and Erzincan; 2000 in Meskene, between Urfa and Aleppo and 2000 others on the outskirts of Mardin were massacred in attacks launched by bandits or nomadic Arabs. Another 5000 people were killed in attacks on convoys passing through Dersim. (41) It was understood from these documents that many people had also fallen victim to hunger while on the road. (42) Apart from these, some 25-30 thousand people had lost their lives when struck by fatal diseases such as typhoid and dysentery. (43) In all, an estimated 40 thousand casualties had been registered during relocation.

    The remaining 10-16 thousand people were made at stay in provinces they had reached, when the implementation of relocation was brought to an end. For instance, on April 26, 1916, orders were given to provide the return to and the settlement in the province of Konya of those Armenians setting out form the province to new destinations. (44) On the other hand, many other Armenians are believed to have fled to either Russia or to Western countries, including the Unites States.

    As a matter of fact, according to the pertinent documents, 50.000 of the Armenian soldiers serving in the Ottoman Army joined the Russian forces, and some other 50.000 Armenian soldiers went to America to be trained in the US Army to fight against the Turkish Army. In fact, the letter of an Armenian called Murad Muradyan- who was an advocate in Elazig later immigrated to America - shows such information. (45) In the concerned letter, Muradyan mentions that some Armenians were escaped to Russia and America and later 50.000 of those trained soldiers went to Caucassia. As it can be understood from all the concerned documents, many of Armenian subjects of the Ottoman State were scattered through various countries especially to U.S.A. and Russia, before and during the war. For example, Artin Hotomyan who was a tradesman in America sent a letter to the Chieftain of Security on January 19, 1915 and stated that thousands of Armenians migrated to U.S.A. and they were facing with hunger and hardships. (46)

    REFERENCE: Halacoglu, Prof. Dr. Yusuf-; Ermeni Tehcirine Dair Gercekler (1915), TTK Yayini, Ankara 2001.


    FOOTNOTES
    1) Annual Record of Britannica, 1917
    2) Uras, Esat, Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi, Istanbul 1987
    3) Aslan, Kevork, Ermenistan ve Ermeniler, Istanbul 1914.
    4) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
    5) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
    6) 1893-1897 Ermeni Isleri, Paris, 1897 Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
    7) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
    8) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
    9) Mazici, Nursen, Belgelerle Uluslar arasi Rekabette Ermeni Sorunu, Istanbul 1987.
    10) see. Karpat, Kemal, H. Ottoman Population 1830-1914 Demographic and Social Characteristic, The University Of Wisconsin Press, 1985 London.
    11) Armenians of Kastamonu, Balikesir, Antalya, Istanbul, Urfa, Protestants and Catholics, the sick people, teachers, orphans and women with no guardian were not subjected to relocation.
    12) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number 68/77 (appendix-XXII).
    13) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number 68/77 (appendix -XXII).
    14) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number 69/250.
    15) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number 68/101.
    16) The number of the immigrants from Diyarbakir is not determined. It is estimated that 20.000 Armenians were relocated from Diyarbakir.
    17) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/89.
    18) code. number54/162
    19) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/72
    20) Giresun, Perºembe, Ulubey, Sürmene, Tirebolu, Ordu and Görele are given in the same document (see. DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/41).
    21) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/76.
    22) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/66.
    23) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number69/260.
    24) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/67 (Appendix-XXIV)
    25) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/79
    26) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/73.
    27) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/75 (Appendix-XXV).
    28) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/66.
    29) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number69/34.
    30) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/93.
    31) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/70 (Appendix-XXVII).
    32) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/41.
    33) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/84 (Appendix-XXVII).
    34) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/41.
    35) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/66.
    36) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/80 (Appendix-XXVIII).
    37) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/71 (Appendix-XXIX); 2nd Branch, number68/84.
    38) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/101.
    39) The number of Armenians transferred from Aleppo is approximately 100.000 (see. DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/80).
    40) The figures can slightly differ.
    41) Coded telegraphs that were sent to the governors of Trabzon, Erzurum, Sivas, Diyarbakir, Elazig, Bitlis, Maras and Canik dated June 26, 1915. (code., number 54-A/112).
    42) code., number 57/110.
    43) see. DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number68/81; see. code., number 57/51.
    44) code., number 63/119.
    45) DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number2F/14.
    46) see. DH. EUM. 2nd Branch, number2F/94.

    Comment


    • Kansas this is your "genocide order"...

      DID TALAT PASHA SEND SECRET TELEGRAMMES ORDERING GENOCIDE?


      Mahmut Esat Ozan


      Baseless Armenian propaganda claiming that so-called genocide was an Ottoman
      government policy requires proof that such a decision was in fact made. For
      this purpose the Armenians produced a number of telegrams attributed to
      Talat Pasha supposedly found by British forces commanded by General Allenby
      when they seized Aleppo in 1918. It was claimed that they were found in the
      office of an Ottoman official named Naim Bey, and that they could be
      destroyed only because the British occupation came with unexpected speed.
      Samples of these telegrams were published in Paris in 1920 by an Armenian
      author named Aram Andonian, (38) and they also were presented at the Berlin
      trial of the Armenian terrorist Tehlirian, who killed Talat Pasha.
      Nevertheless, the court neither considered these documents as "evidence" nor
      was involved in any decision claiming the authenticity of them. These
      documents were, however, entirely fabricated, and the claims deriving from
      them therefore cannot be sustained. They were in fact published by the Daily
      Telegraph of London in 1922, (39) which also attributed them to a discovery
      made by Allenby's army. But when the British Foreign Office enquired about
      them at the War Office, and with Allenby himself, it was discovered that
      they had not been discovered by the British army but, rather, had been
      produced by an Armenian group in Paris. In addition, examination of the
      photographs provided in the Andonian volume shows clearly that neither in
      form, script or phraseology did they resemble normal Ottoman administrative
      documents, and that they were, therefore, rather crude forgeries.


      Following the Entente occupation of Istanbul, the British and the French
      arrested a number of Ottoman political and military figures and some
      intellectuals on charges of war crimes. In this they were given substantial
      assistance by the Ottoman Liberal Union Party, which had been placed in
      power by the Sultan after the war, and which was anxious to do anything it
      could to definitively destroy the Union and Progress Party and its leaders,
      who had long been political enemies. Most of the prisoners were sent off to
      imprisonment in Malta, but the four Union and Progress leaders who had fled
      from the country just before the occupation were tried and sentenced to
      death in absentia in Istanbul. Three other Government officials were
      sentenced to death and executed, but it was discovered later that the
      evidence on which the convictions had been based was false.


      In the meantime, the British looked everywhere to find evidence against
      those who had been sent to Malta. Despite the complete cooperation of wome
      enthusraztic supporters such as the Ottoman Liberal Union (38) ANDONIAN,
      Aram, Documents Qfficiels concernant les Massacres Armmiens, Paris, Armenian
      National Delegation, 1920. (39) Daily Telegraph, 29 May 1922. government,
      nothing incriminating could be found among the Ottoman government documents.
      Similar searches in the British archives were fruitless. Finally, in
      desperation, the British Foreign Office turned to the American archives in
      Washington, but in reply, one of their representatives, R. C. Craigie, wrote
      to Lord Curzon:


      "I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could
      be used as evidence against the Turks who are at present being detained at
      Malta ...no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory
      incriminating evidence.... The reports in question do not appear in any case
      to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the
      purpose of corroborating information already in the possession of His
      Majesty's Government.''(40)


      Uncertain as to what should be done with prisoners, who already had been
      held for two years, without trial and without even any charges being filed
      or evidence produced, the Foreign Office applied for advice to the Law
      Officers of the Crown in London, who concluded on 29 July, 1921:


      "Up to the present no statements have been taken from witnesses who can
      depose to the truth of the charges made against the prisoners. It is indeed
      uncertain whether any witnesses can be found." (41)


      At this time the "documents" produced by Andonian were available, but
      despite their desperate search for evidence, which could be presented in a
      court of law, the British, never used them because it was evident that they
      were forgeries. As a result, the prisoners were quietly released in 1921,
      without charges ever having been filed or evidence produced.


      It is useful to reiterate that the main elements in the chain of evidence
      constructed in proving that Andonian's "documents" were all patent
      forgeries:


      1. To show that his forgeries were in fact "authentic Ottoman documents"
      Andonian relied on the signature of the Governor of Aleppo, Mustafa
      Abdiilhalik Bey, which he claimed was appended to several of the "documents"
      in question. By examining several actual specimens of Mustafa Abdülhalik
      Bey's signature as preserved on contemporary official documents, it is
      established that the alleged signatures appended to Andonian's "documents"
      were forgeries.


      2. In one of his forged documents, Andonian dated the note and signature
      attributed to Mustafa Abdülhalik Bey. Again, by a comparison with authentic
      correspondence between the Governor (40) 13 July 1921; British Foreign
      Office Archives 371/6504/8519 (41) British Foreign Office Archives
      371/6504/E8745


      Aleppo and the Ministry of the Interior in Istanbul, on the date in
      question, it is proven that the Governor of Aleppo on that date was Bekir
      Sami Bey, not Mustafa Abdulhalik Bey.


      3. Consistently, Andonian's forgeries attest to the fact that he was either
      totally unaware of, or carelessly neglected to account for, the differences
      between the Muslim Rumi and Christian calendars. The numerous errors he made
      as a result of this oversight are, in and of themselves, sufficient to prove
      the fabricated nature of his "documents". Among other things, the errors
      Andonian made in this respect served to destroy the system of reference
      numbers and dates that he concocted for his "documents".

      4. By way of a detailed comparison of the entries made in the Ministry of
      the Interior's Registers of outgoing Ciphers, wherein are recorded the date
      and reference number of every ciphered communication sent out by the
      Ministry, with the dates and reference numbers placed by Andonian on his
      forgeries, it is proven that his so-called "ciphered, telegrams" bear no
      relationship whatsoever to the actual ciphers sent by the Ministry to Aleppo
      in the period in question.


      5. Again, by comparing the Turkish "originals" of Andonian's " ciphered
      telegrams" with actual examples of contemporary Ottoman ciphered messages,
      it is shown that the number groupings he employed bear no relationship to
      the actual ciphers the Ottomans were using in that period. Thus, in his
      attempt to make his forgeries appear credible, he created a whole series of
      unusable, non-existent ciphers. Further, from the dates he affixed to his
      forgeries in this category, the Ottomans would have had to use the same
      ciphers over a six-month period which was impossible. By publishing a series
      of documents instructing officials to change the ciphers they were using, it
      is shown that, in fact, the Ottomans were changing their cipher codes on
      average once every two months during the war years.


      6. By comparing the manner in which the common Islamic injunction, Besmele,
      was written on Andonian's two forged letters with numerous examples of the
      way in which it appears on authentic contemporary Ottoman documents, it is
      suggested that Andonian's clumsy forgery of this term may well have stemmed
      from the fact that non-Muslims, even those who knew Ottoman Turkish, did not
      employ this injunction.


      7. A number of examples from Andonian's forgeries show that it is simply
      inconceivable that any Ottoman official could have used such sentence
      structures and make such grammatical errors. In the same vein, a host of
      expressions; allegedly uttered by prominent Ottoman officials are used,
      which no Ottoman Turk would ever have used. Andonian's intention in these
      instances was clear: he wanted nothing less than the Turks themselves to be
      seeming to confess to crimes which he had manufactured for them.


      8. The forged documents, with two exceptions, were written on plain paper
      with none of the usual signs found on the official paper used by the Ottoman
      bureaucracy in this period. The fact that one of the forged Turkish
      originals was written on a double-lined paper, which the Ottomans did not
      even use for private correspondence, constitutes an even more serious error
      on Andonian's part. Even the two forgeries which appear at first glance to
      have been written on some kind of official Ottoman stationery are actually
      written on blank telegraph forms, which anyone wishing to send a telegram
      could pick up in any Ottoman post office.


      9. At a time when the British were frantically searching the world's
      archives for anything to be used as "evidence" against the group of Ottoman
      officials whom they were holding for trial as being "responsible for the
      Armenian incidents", their failure to utilize Andonian's "documents" which
      were readily available in their English edition, strongly suggests that the
      British Government was fully aware of the nature of these forgeries.


      10. Had documents of the nature of those concocted by Andonian ever actually
      existed, their confidential nature would have dictated that they be sent by
      courier for security reasons; rather than through the easily breachable
      public telegraph system. Likewise, had such documents really ever been
      written; it is inconceivable that they could have lain around in a file for
      three years, instead of being destroyed as soon as they had been read.


      11. There are also numerous differences between the French and English
      editions of Andonian's book. Indeed, these variations are of such
      significance that it is absolutely impossible to ascribe them to printing
      errors, or errors in translation.


      12. Finally, the fact that even some authors with close links to Armenian
      circles, who serve as spokesmen for Armenian causes, have indicated their
      own doubt as to the veracity of Andonian's "documents" should not be
      overlooked. In short, from start to finish the so-called "Talat Pasha
      Telegrams" are nothing more than crude forgeries, concocted by Andonian and
      his associates. Moreover the Ottoman archives contain a number of orders;
      whose authenticity can definitely be substantiated, issued on the same
      dates, in which Talat Pasha ordered investigations to be made to find and
      punish those responsible for the attacks which were being made on the
      deportation caravans. It is hardly likely that he would have been ordering
      massacres on one hand and investigations and punishments for such crimes on
      the other.


      A letter forged by Aram Andonian with the date, February 18, 1331 (March
      2,1916) opens with a "bismillah" (blessing), which would never have been
      written by a Moslem. The forger, Andonian, made his most fatal mistake with
      the date, however. He was obviously not well enough versed in the tricks of
      converting to the Rumi year of the Ottomans, where a difference of thirteen
      days between the Rumi and Gregorian calendars must be taken into account.


      The date he put on the letter was off by a full year. Instead of 1330
      (1915), he wrote 1331 (1916). The contents of the letter are supposed to be
      evidence of the long advance planning of the resettlement operation of
      1915.(42) (42) Feigl, Erich. A Myth of Terror, 1991, Edition
      zeitgeschichten-Freilassing- Salzburg, p. 85


      An American aid organization called "the Near East Relief Society" was
      allowed by the Ottoman Government to stay and fulfill its functions in
      Anatolia during the deportations. Even following the entry of U.S.A. into
      war on the side of Entente powers against Ottoman Empire, the same
      organization was permitted to remain in Anatolia. This was dealt in the
      reports of the American Ambassador Elkus in Istanbul. In this case, if an
      order for "massacring Armenians" had been given, would the Ottoman
      Government have allowed to an American organization to be witness to the
      "massacres". In other words, it is ridiculous to suppose that the Ottomans
      said to America: "We are massacring Armenians. Why don't you have a look at
      it." Such an allegation could never be a logical explanation of historic
      facts. Finally, and in the end most important, when the war came to an end,
      the Armenian population still was substantially in place in Western
      Anatolia, Thrace and Istanbul. Had the Ottoman government ordered massacres,
      evidently they too would have been killed. And for that matter, had the
      Ottoman government wanted to eliminate all the Armenians in the Empire, it
      could have done so far more easily by killing and disposing of them where
      they lived, rather than undertaking a large-scale deportation of those in
      the Eastern war zones under the eyes of foreign observers.


      The claim, thus, that the Ottoman government ordered and carried out a
      general massacre of Armenians in the Empire cannot be sustained and is
      disproved by the facts.

      Comment


      • i have to add, as a turkish armenian, i consider both countries "home", even though my bonds are much stronger with turkey-since i was born in turkey. and i know that, the truth-no matter what- is the "salvation" in this matter. this is why i dedicated 3 years and still do, to researching this issue, in three countries, armenia, turkey and the US.

        but i believe, there are a few questions that should be answered first..

        1-If there really had been a genocide, and turkey recognized that, will it ease the pain of armenian people?? -no, not mine.
        2-Will that recognition bring peace between the two nations?? -i would not think so, considering even the only place where the people of two nations could live happily together, turkey, is having difficulties accomodating the people of both nations these days. because of the rising racism, which is a result of the foreign pressure applied to turkey by the EU, and the armenian diaspora. so, i believe the recognition could result in a war, which could even cost the existence of one of the states... but definitely not peace.
        3-is this issue a matter of humanity or international politics?? -i d go for the second option, the fact that this issue is a taboo in many countries summarizes what it is pretty clearly.
        4-do terms really matter?? genocide, mass killing, ethnic cleansing etc.?? -yes they do, they certainly do; however, we are fighting a never ending fight here, and the real matter to me is that both sides owe apologies.

        peace, Murat.

        Comment


        • To murattimucin & neyzen, saw this and thought of you...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kansas Bear View Post
            To murattimucin & neyzen, saw this and thought of you...


            would you mind explaining what you imply??

            Comment


            • Originally posted by neyzen View Post
              Kansas this is your "genocide order"...
              I don't use Armenian, British, French, or turkish sources.....


              "Documentation of the Armenian Genocide in German and Austrian Sources," -- Vahakn N. Dadrian

              Comment


              • EVERYONE READ THIS!!!
                dont worry,be happy.relax
                snc128 you asked me 2 questions first of all these questions have nothing to do with the subject we are discussing here. But bcs you sked me I will reply to you. About Cyprus you said

                thx
                "do u wanna give an explanation about South Cyprus referendum about union with North Cyprus which was resulted witha a huge NO while Cyprus Greeks was defending union.what made them their mind change dramatically.and what made them break their promise and behave unreliabily."

                Cyprus didnt brake any promise Anan's plan was to found a solution the reason Cyprus vote NO was because this plan offer more to Turkey
                u break a promise cuz Southern cypriots have always claimed that they r the ones who want a union and they ALSO CLAIM that norther cypriots prevent the peace treaty and possible solutions.
                (all the world accept that thats why the turkish cypriots have economic embargo) get the half and after a plan make him the boss of the house. Sorry but we are not stupid..
                it is not a subject of stupidness.it is connected with the Rums' totalitarian regime that is wanted to begun on Turkish ppl.anyone who dont believe me can make a search about EOKA,ENOSIS and find out how many bloody crimes they have committed on powerless Turkish Cypriots.

                about Greece you said "and can u give an explanation about the support that Greece gave to PKK and ASALAwhile EU consider them as terrorists.EU says they r terrorists but an EU member (Greece) feeds them.A MORAL DILEMMA"

                ---Just to remind you once more that USA support Kurds that why they dont let you get to the north Iraq and attact them, how you can explain that?
                USA support Terrorist??
                oh my God.help me.try to be silent if u dont know exactly.1st of all we dont have any problems with Kurds.furthermore Kurds r our brothers.WE VE been living together for centuries.the problem is PKK,(new name is KONGRAGEL and PEJAK) .US will probably to do what he has to do as soon as possible.we ,all have same tradition.we suffered from EOKA,ENOSIS,ASALA,PKK and they r suffering from Taliban,el-kaide.i mean,dont worry .we can understand each other.
                Also bcs you blame Greece that support terrorists. I want to ask you something... you said that you have good relationship with Syria and that there is co-operation in many things with them


                "also ,we start a lot of projects with Syria and increased the trade volume 3 times more than last year"

                Do you know that Syria blamed from USA that train terriorist how Turkey "the good country according to you" co-operate with them?
                we also really want to and struggle for to build peace bridges with u.we give importance our neighbours,but the point is not that.what i want to say is we have private relations such as businessmen's .if u were much carefull u would see that i insist on telling u that we especially developed the trade ratio.one more thing ,does Greece do what does Us want??? logical fallacy.Ad hominem.u r the member of EU but we r not a member of USA.

                Tell me what happened in Turkey with Human rights? how Turkey react to minorities?
                buddy,u r too ignorant especially about this topic.i ve either Kurdish or Arabic roots in my family.i dont know whether this would be a reasonable answer for everyone.moreover,i couldnt understand the connection of this question with the title Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios .dont go off topic.if u wanna learn sth just start a new thread immediately.

                What you can say about the houses and land wich illegally Turkey stollen from the Greeks in Turkey?
                a war was done.r u aware of what happened in 1974.
                What you can say about the problems the Greek church there faces from
                turkish people there?
                like the religious imams ur Gov. assignes to Turkish minority in Greece.why dont u let them to choose their own and accepted imams.we let Greeks to choose their own Patrik.Barthelomeos and Greeks in Turkiye have much more rights than the Turkish minority who lives in Greece.snake doesnt see his crooked neck and says camel' why ur neck is curved.'
                What you can say about the a christian school which illegaly dont give the permision to open?
                look at the answer at the top of this.
                What you can say about the at least 30 -40 times a day Turkish airforse fly to Athens FIR and we have all the time dogfight and recently we had an achident with a dead pilot?
                same is valid for u
                What you can say about the money Turkey gave to US MP in order to do not recognise the genoctony of Armenians? I have the article here in frond of me.
                totally BS.armenians and Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios
                What you can say about the crimes Turkey did to the humanity? here look SOKING PICTURES!! But your propaganda doesn't talk about these..
                what does a mirror reflect u when u look at it.it is purely u.u ll see ur crimes when u look at those pics.nothing more
                I have infrond of me a report of Defense and Foreign Afairs Strategic Policy which is in USA's Virginia which writes that the Greek soldiers you get from the Cyprus war in 1974 and Kurds Turkey used them in secret biological laboratories as "lab animals" I have the article and I can send it to anyone asked me that. What you can say about that Mr or Mrs SNC128?
                send me. Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios
                I have articles for all I said with NAMES!! Im not saying these...isn't m imagination.

                Please stop your propaganda in this forum. And I wrote all these bcs you tried to blame Greece. No-one like Turkey most of the people know what kind of country it is and thats why the EU citizens dont want Turkey in EU. and I have statistics about that. So for one more time stop your propaganda and I am telling you that I can say more WITH PROVES about unethical issues in Turkey.
                dont get furious.just try to speak.and never speak instead of others.
                Thank you and I would like to appologise if the things I wrote might create anger for some people. Greece wants good relationship with Turkey and with all countries Thanks
                same is here.as i had mentioned at the 1st sentence of my paragraph all of our effort is for establishing peace bridges from heart to heart.i wont lengthen the subject with u.we r going nowhere cuz of going off topic .i m finishing the subject.
                sigpicaction speaks louder than words

                Comment


                • "What you can say about the problems the Greek church there faces from
                  turkish people there?" Pls tell me what kind of problems Greek church faces from turkish people. Turkey banned caliphate, but should allow to patriarch; right? Asking for it is alone harassment...
                  this is A REALLY good point that i forgot to say.
                  sigpicaction speaks louder than words

                  Comment


                  • snc128

                    Cyprus didnt brake any promise Anan's plan was to found a solution the reason Cyprus vote NO was because this plan offer more to Turkey

                    Quote:
                    u break a promise cuz Southern cypriots have always claimed that they r the ones who want a union and they ALSO CLAIM that norther cypriots prevent the peace treaty and possible solutions.

                    (I think I answere to this question, if you dont understand it, it has to do or bcs you are selfish or bcs of your IQ)


                    (all the world accept that thats why the turkish cypriots have economic embargo) get the half and after a plan make him the boss of the house. Sorry but we are not stupid..

                    Quote:
                    it is not a subject of stupidness.it is connected with the Rums' totalitarian regime that is wanted to begun on Turkish ppl.anyone who dont believe me can make a search about EOKA,ENOSIS and find out how many bloody crimes they have committed on powerless Turkish Cypriots.

                    (you should go back and see who was back of what happened in cyprus and what EOKA tried to do. If you have knowledge you will know what was the role of UK in Cyprus and how they put Turkish people into the game.

                    about Greece you said "and can u give an explanation about the support that Greece gave to PKK and ASALAwhile EU consider them as terrorists.EU says they r terrorists but an EU member (Greece) feeds them.A MORAL DILEMMA"

                    ---Just to remind you once more that USA support Kurds that why they dont let you get to the north Iraq and attact them, how you can explain that?
                    USA support Terrorist??

                    Quote:
                    oh my God.help me.try to be silent if u dont know exactly.1st of all we dont have any problems with Kurds.furthermore Kurds r our brothers.WE VE been living together for centuries.the problem is PKK,(new name is KONGRAGEL and PEJAK) .US will probably to do what he has to do as soon as possible.we ,all have same tradition.we suffered from EOKA,ENOSIS,ASALA,PKK and they r suffering from Taliban,el-kaide.i mean,dont worry .we can understand each other.

                    (I'm talking about the Kurds in north Iraq PKK Mr smart.. and by the way we need to understand what we mean by terriorists.. Probably in your mind terrorists are the people who stand against us you are wrong.. think what the kurds suffer from Turkey and what they try to achieve. By the way when you will have New Kurdistan there you will remember me. And when you are talking about the support of PKK you are going somewhere else. We are not talking about deeper things.. Hope to understand what I mean if not you have to open your mind and see the real World)

                    Also bcs you blame Greece that support terrorists. I want to ask you something... you said that you have good relationship with Syria and that there is co-operation in many things with them


                    "also ,we start a lot of projects with Syria and increased the trade volume 3 times more than last year"

                    Do you know that Syria blamed from USA that train terriorist how Turkey "the good country according to you" co-operate with them?

                    Quote:
                    we also really want to and struggle for to build peace bridges with u.we give importance our neighbours,but the point is not that.what i want to say is we have private relations such as businessmen's .if u were much carefull u would see that i insist on telling u that we especially developed the trade ratio.one more thing ,does Greece do what does Us want??? logical fallacy.Ad hominem.u r the member of EU but we r not a member of USA.

                    (My friend you don't have a clue of wht you are talking about.. I'm really sorry.. What you saying it's crap.. US is one of the bigest power at the moment. Ofcourse they have influence, they have influence even to EU thats why they support Turkey to join EU. Again when you talk about these things you are going somewhere deeper.. Greece has many times do things that the US might not like them, and especially when it comes to war Greece had said many times that is against that ie recently in the war in Lebanon Greece said from the first time that what is going on there is unexeptable. And by the way if Greece or if any other Country support US or another huge power Russia or whatever is something that you or anyone of us will know. And by the way USA influence Turkey as well. so I think what you said it was crap.)

                    Tell me what happened in Turkey with Human rights? how Turkey react to minorities?
                    Quote:
                    buddy,u r too ignorant especially about this topic.i ve either Kurdish or Arabic roots in my family.i dont know whether this would be a reasonable answer for everyone.moreover,i couldnt understand the connection of this question with the title Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios .dont go off topic.if u wanna learn sth just start a new thread immediately.

                    (Again my friend crap ecxusess... Turkey does not respect human rights and thats a big issue for join EU. I don't say these things watch BBC, read newspapers. Stop be a selfish..and by the way you where the fist who change the subject and if you have a look to my replies you will see it.. now if you do't have brain isn't my problem. And about Conflict scenarios I wouldn't say that Greece will win bcs that will sound like I said that bcs
                    I'm Greek.. and second of all bcs in my opinion is stupid someone to say that Greece will win or Turkey will win.. there are advantages and disadvantages..I would say that Greece have everything needed (when it comes to; army, politics, influences, economy etc) to defeat and why not to win in any attack. When it comes to army Turkey has a massive which is an advantage for Turkey but on the other hand has other problems which liminate this advantage similar with Greece,.. Greece has a smaller army when it comes to mens but it has other advantages. Many thing get into account politics, geopolitical, what would be the advantage for the big nations etc.

                    What you can say about the houses and land wich illegally Turkey stollen from the Greeks in Turkey?

                    Quote:
                    a war was done.r u aware of what happened in 1974.

                    ( lack of knowledge again isn't only in Cyprus there are many cases in Konstantinoupolis. You get illegally property even from patriarxio)

                    What you can say about the problems the Greek church there faces from
                    turkish people there?
                    Quote:
                    like the religious imams ur Gov. assignes to Turkish minority in Greece.why dont u let them to choose their own and accepted imams.we let Greeks to choose their own Patrik.Barthelomeos and Greeks in Turkiye have much more rights than the Turkish minority who lives in Greece.snake doesnt see his crooked neck and says camel' why ur neck is curved.'

                    (you have been influended from propaganda there.. All the time gray wolfs involved in icidents against patriarxio where r you living? another thing of all in Thraki there is no Turkish minority accordind to Losani's agreement there is muslem minority big difference, another thing these people there have enough rights they are presented in Greek parliament and noone ever did something agaist them..

                    What you can say about the a christian school which illegaly dont give the permision to open?

                    Quote:
                    look at the answer at the top of this.

                    (bad excsuse again... and by the way you proved that bcs these people can't choose their own and accepted imams which this has to do with rules and the law in Greece you keep a school close illegaly I can't understant the way you are thinking. and by the way your country plays a dangerous game in Thraki which can lead to the worst. Anyway that doesn't show a good neigbour as you try to make people believe here.


                    What you can say about the at least 30 -40 times a day Turkish airforse fly to Athens FIR and we have all the time dogfight and recently we had an achident with a dead pilot?

                    Quote:
                    same is valid for u

                    What is valid or not the people needs to know that eg NATO, EU etc knows that.


                    What you can say about the money Turkey gave to US MP in order to do not recognise the genoctony of Armenians? I have the article here in frond of me.
                    Quote:
                    totally BS.armenians and Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios

                    (your reply doesn't anwere my question and you are so how can I say it idiot it might be agaist the rules of this forum anyway probably you didn;t mension that I have the article and just for reference reasons only it was FBI agent sebel edmonts who said these things to the magazine "vanity fair" and she said that she have tapes which proves that. these might be according to you BS)

                    What you can say about the crimes Turkey did to the humanity? here look SOKING PICTURES!! But your propaganda doesn't talk about these..

                    Quote:
                    what does a mirror reflect u when u look at it.it is purely u.u ll see ur crimes when u look at those pics.nothing more

                    (again i didn't get any reply that answere to my question..and by the way bcs you might say that they are fake there is a book who wrote the man who was in US empathy in 1922 in Smyrne it writes everthing about the rapes the killings of children etc I suggest you to read it.

                    I have infrond of me a report of Defense and Foreign Afairs Strategic Policy which is in USA's Virginia which writes that the Greek soldiers you get from the Cyprus war in 1974 and Kurds Turkey used them in secret biological laboratories as "lab animals" I have the article and I can send it to anyone asked me that. What you can say about that Mr or Mrs SNC128?

                    Quote:
                    send me. Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios

                    (how rediculus can you be? you represent what yur country did. you dont feel sorry? if someone wrote these things about my country withreferences and everything I would feel sorry and i would said that the people who did that are animals not humans.)

                    Please stop your propaganda in this forum. And I wrote all these bcs you tried to blame Greece. No-one like Turkey most of the people know what kind of country it is and thats why the EU citizens dont want Turkey in EU. and I have statistics about that. So for one more time stop your propaganda and I am telling you that I can say more WITH PROVES about unethical issues in Turkey.

                    Quote:
                    dont get furious.just try to speak.and never speak instead of others.
                    (im talking about me never instead of others.)


                    Unfortunatelly I didn't receive any answere for what I asked you.. open your mind a bit I wrote you some things one day you might understand that where correct I hope to remeber then you will remember me.
                    you said "i wont lengthen the subject with u.we r going nowhere cuz of going off topic .i m finishing the subject." you started to be out of topic when you started ask me about Cyprus no etc. My conclusion from that is 1. you don't know what is going on 2. you have dreaming in your counrys propaganda 3. you cant talk and state what you think 4. you are a selfish person 5. you are a person that don't have feelings

                    Anyway I tried to explain you some things I hope to keep some of them. I wont say anything else bcs you seem not to understand the reallity. If you are 13 years old never mind you are young but f you are over 18 then I feel sorry.
                    Never mind if anyone read what you wrote from the beggining I think he can make a conclusion about our debate. Take care and I hope in the future our Countres to have better relations..

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