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  • #16
    Originally posted by ArmchairGeneral
    That's odd. I was about to assert almost the exact opposite. .
    That's the difference between the observer and the observed I guess ;)
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

    Leibniz

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    • #17
      You guys are going to hate me for saying this, but its none of the three (except maybe Rome), but rather the Perisan Empire.
      That empire was in many ways like the US, it was a multitude of differnt nationalities, which became one under Cyrus, a pluralistic, and tolerant nation. And like the US it was the most powerful nation of its time as well as the most influential. That is something the US is like since at leats 1900.

      Rome ruled from Britain to Arabia, and well they inluenced everyone they ruled as well as many more.

      If Athens and Sparta might be a good theory for US Heritage but the practice is that of the Persians. Lets see Athenian "democracy" was limited to just a few, Sparta was a military state which at its height had 25000 citizens, and 250,000 slaves.
      And that, is not a bad thing, there was much more to the Persians than the Persian War
      "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

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      • #18
        I vote Rome. The founding fathers of the US preferred a Republic to a Democracy, and a big nation over a conglomerate of small city-states. They (at least the Virginian FFs) also drew heavily on the lessons of Rome for the constitution of the state.
        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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        • #19
          I voted for both Athens and Rome. Athens for the idea of democracy and Rome for the conquering and building nature.
          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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          • #20
            Rome. Since The U.S & the romans tried to spread its influence towards many nations.
            He conquers who endures - Persius

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            • #21
              I vote Israel. The Bible and Judeo-Christian ethics have had more influence on the American character than anything created by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Etruscans, Celts, or Mongols.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by svs View Post
                I vote Israel. The Bible and Judeo-Christian ethics have had more influence on the American character than anything created by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Etruscans, Celts, or Mongols.
                Well, if it is similarities you are looking for we are far more like Rome than we have ever been like Hebrew Judea (if that is the Israel you are talking about). While we do have a Judeo-Christian culture, our society doesn't really resemble previous Christian societies either... I'd say Republican Rome is the closest to what the US is today.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Shek View Post
                  From whom does the US most draw its character and government from? Athens? Sparta? Rome? I've set the poll up so you aren't limited to only one city/empire.
                  The American Heritage, I agree with Rusty, is more from North and West Europe than any of the Southern Med cultures. The "Roman" character of the government comes to American government from a period of heightened Neo-Classical interest in Western Europe in past couple of centuries. That said, it is also true that Imperial Age Roman heritage was imprinted on the North and Western Europeans quite well. The Roman Catholic Church also kept alive some of the Roman heritage and infused the NW Europeans with it until the Protestant Schism. In someways the Northern cold has preserved some Roman virtues quite well. The Classical Greek heritage, OTOH, comes to most Americans only with deliberate and conscious effort.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cactus View Post
                    The American Heritage, I agree with Rusty, is more from North and West Europe than any of the Southern Med cultures. The "Roman" character of the government comes to American government from a period of heightened Neo-Classical interest in Western Europe in past couple of centuries. That said, it is also true that Imperial Age Roman heritage was imprinted on the North and Western Europeans quite well. The Roman Catholic Church also kept alive some of the Roman heritage and infused the NW Europeans with it until the Protestant Schism. In someways the Northern cold has preserved some Roman virtues quite well. The Classical Greek heritage, OTOH, comes to most Americans only with deliberate and conscious effort.
                    Cactus,

                    There was a huge Greek Revival in the mid-1800's that greatly influenced the US and its character. If you look at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, it draws its heritage from Athens, and it is the Gettysburg Address (the Civil War was a necessary, but not sufficient condition) that shaped the American psyche to think of the union as the United states as opposed to the united States.

                    Additionally, the self-concept of American exceptionalism draws its roots directly from Athens, and an American cannot help but feel connected to the exceptional character of Athens as they read Thucydides' history of the Pelopponesian War.

                    I'd argue that the Athenian character may require a conscious effort to recognize, but that it is essentially an integral trait of Americans.
                    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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                    • #25
                      The Arm, Heart, and Brain

                      The Arm-Sparta

                      The Heart- Athens

                      The Brain- Rome

                      I voted for three. Our mutated and exponential growth as a nation feeds the expansion of these historical lineages. They struggle among one another. They disconsonately merge. Occasionally, they synergize immense displays of orchestrated power- economic, military, diplomatic.

                      There resides a heart which debates with itself and seeks moral balance, recognizing that America will never be completely so...
                      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Shek View Post
                        Cactus,

                        There was a huge Greek Revival in the mid-1800's that greatly influenced the US and its character. If you look at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, it draws its heritage from Athens, and it is the Gettysburg Address (the Civil War was a necessary, but not sufficient condition) that shaped the American psyche to think of the union as the United states as opposed to the united States.

                        Additionally, the self-concept of American exceptionalism draws its roots directly from Athens, and an American cannot help but feel connected to the exceptional character of Athens as they read Thucydides' history of the Pelopponesian War.

                        I'd argue that the Athenian character may require a conscious effort to recognize, but that it is essentially an integral trait of Americans.
                        Shek,

                        The Neo-Classical movement that has been running for past few centuries has made both Greek and Roman impressions on the American government.

                        Your argument for the Greeks has its obvious advantages - the Greek civilization is older and better situated for generating culture. The argument for the Romans also has its advantages - it was better situated to influence the Western Culture and it is explicitly evoked much earlier in the annals of American republic.
                        George Washington as Modern Cincinnatus, "Cato", the absolutist Roman approach to war ("Unconditional Surrender"), Grachii-like approach of the New Deal... just some randomly choosen major milestones in American history where the decision makers explicitly drew inspiration from Roman ideals of virtue and duty.

                        However neither alone, nor both together, match up to the overwhelming influence exerted by the Northern and Western Europeans on the "American Culture". First and foremost there is the language - English - which is not just a tool for communication, but also the designboard for advanced thought. If your designboard does not have some components (Greek/Latin components), there is no way thoughts dependent upon it can be developed - at best a shoddy fascimilie can be laboriously constructed; conversely if your language has components that others don't you can think thoughts others cannot. Below that there are plenty of other smaller but more obviously apparent cultural manifestations... (a Greco-Roman style building, a wittengemot style legislature etc, etc.).

                        PS: Incidentally a loooong time ago I had written a high-school "Current Events" report on a WaPo article comparing US Theater Commanders to old Roman Pro-Consuls. I don't remember what exactly I had written, but I do remember the article: American Pro-Consuls: US Theater Commanders October of 2000. Gawd, it was such a different time! {I don't think it is available for viewing unless you have a WaPo account with archives viewing privilege}.
                        Last edited by Cactus; 29 Feb 08,, 21:15.

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                        • #27
                          Well, while some of the educated founders could read Latin and Greek, everybody had a Bible and I would say the the Bible is the major source for the ethical basis of American society. Truth to tell our republic is really all that much like that of Rome with its Patrician classes or Athens with its infighting, ostracons, and helots. Although Judea and Isreal were monarchies there was much less of a class structure other than the religious classes of priests and Levites than in the Roman Republic. We clearly owe the Greeks a debt with regard to their science, art and philosophy, and the Romans for their engineering and societal structures, but I think ignoring the contributions of the ancient Israelis would be as foolish as ignoring the contributions of the Greeks and Romans.

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                          • #28
                            Rome/Athens, our system of government, disdain for barbarian cultures and the right of conquest. However like Rome and the wider Hellenic world we made strangers into ourselves. The Gauls became more Roman than the Romans, and we made the descendants of Rome as American as apple pie.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ArmchairGeneral View Post
                              That said, when it comes down to it, I agree with RustyBattleship. Britain's gov't, legal system, and philosophers played a far large role than the Classics.
                              Yes, ArmchairGeneral, it's possible to push analogies too far. The Roman Senate and the US Senate don't really resemble each other. The Greek appearance of early 19th century public buildings and Southern mansions was more about looking at an alternative to Georgian England for architectural models after the Revolution.

                              You could say that north-western European traditions of Protestant Christianity (Germany, Scandinavia and Britain) and Enlightenment philosophy (France and Britain) had a bigger impact on the early USA than ancient history ... as far as individual cities goes maybe Amsterdam is closer!
                              Last edited by clackers; 29 Mar 08,, 03:16.

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                              • #30
                                I would agree with Clackers but add that many of the immigrants and citizens of the States had their own political agenda, just as today, so had different bases of power, and that the Protestant fiber did run deep among the citizenry who might have accepted a more theocratic government, just as much as Enlightenment ran deep among many of the founding fathers who were opposed to theocracy and wanted a separation of church and state.

                                Definitely though the form of government became a republic and the only functioning republic in Europe was of course Holland which eventually served as a model. I would further add that the true source of power and authority was ultimately the bankers whose model was based on the Hanseatic League and again Holland.
                                Alea iacta est.

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