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  • #31
    Sorry, here but I can see you've walked right into a Chinese trap sort of speak. The Chinese likes nothing better than a single battle of anhilation ... and you've just given them one ... on their home ground.
    Its not like the InA will walk right into Lhasa. I'm expecting the InA to take something. Can the PLA really take the artillery barage from InA like they did last time?
    You might have a case if the Chinese had to drag their supplies from outside of Tibet. You don't have a case after the fact that the Chinese have already stockpiled for the region.
    But what about dragging them from Tibet to the boarder? Surely the can't have AA guns already at the Indian boarder.
    hmmm. I wonder if AA guns will be just as effective at night as in GWI.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by dabrownguy
      Its not like the InA will walk right into Lhasa. I'm expecting the InA to take something.
      You mean a p!ssing contest? 10 or 20 kms? Not worth the blood at all. Both armies would want fast, bold, and decisive actions. Key word - decisive. The further you go into Tibet, the more in the Chinese favour this becomes.

      Remember that the Chinese have not forgotten their lesson from the 79 1st Sino-VN War. Militarily speaking, they won that war. They achieved all their OPOBJs albeit at a high cost. Politically and diplomatically, they lost that war.

      Which do you think the world remember? The Chinese withdrew from Vietnam after destroying 3 Provincial Capitals or that the Vietnamese chased the Chinese out of Vietnam?

      Originally posted by dabrownguy
      Can the PLA really take the artillery barage from InA like they did last time?
      The Chinese envision the battle to be 3 phases.

      1) Recee by force
      2) Defining the War Zone or the Area of Operations
      3) The Battle of Annhilation within that WZ.

      You could conceiveably waste all your ammo killing Phase I and II only to fall to Phase III. Remember how the Chinese operate. They fight until they can fight no more and then step aside for a fresh force.

      Originally posted by dabrownguy
      But what about dragging them from Tibet to the boarder? Surely the can't have AA guns already at the Indian boarder.
      hmmm. I wonder if AA guns will be just as effective at night as in GWI.
      You're forgetting something. For every one bomb you drop on the AD guys is one bomb you have less against their regular infantry. They really don't care about your birds if you're too busy killing their birds and ground AD net.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tronic
        oh and OoE... one more thing... almost forgot to ask about the Navy... would the Chinese send a fleet to the Indian Coast or vic-versa... what would be the results of a naval face-off...
        We've discuss the issue before. There would be no naval engagement. Either fleet in the other home waters would suffer greatly from the lack of air cover. And while the InN could conceiveably blocked Chinese bound traffic, in reality, they won't do it since this would impede the Freedom of the Seas and would involve the USN - in China's favour.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by gunnut
          Sir, how can Taiwan threaten China? I don't see an invasion. Independence is the only threat but that's more political.
          Taiwan Independence is a threat to the territorial integrety of China, not necessary the PRC.

          Originally posted by gunnut
          Do North Korea, Russia, and Vietnam pose much of a realistic invasion threat?
          North Korea's threat is its instability and the resulting refugee crisis that would surely swamp China. The PLA may have no choice but to invade North Korea to keep the North Koreans in North Korea if Kim decides to get a little too crazy.

          Russia and Vietnam currently poses no threat . However, it was not all that long ago that they were the direct threat and the PLA has not abandon those missions either through laziness or just being careful

          Comment


          • #35
            You mean a p!ssing contest? 10 or 20 kms? Not worth the blood at all. Both armies would want fast, bold, and decisive actions. Key word - decisive. The further you go into Tibet, the more in the Chinese favour this becomes.
            Well I imagine the InA wants to return the 1962 favour and undermine the capability of the Communist. Even if the Chinese would try to bleed the InA out they'll have to retire sometime if the InA does what Pak NLI did in Kargil. If the InA sneaks in grabs some peaks with the help of air lifts they could get cumfortable. There are a lot of small villages near the Indian boarder in Tibet that could be worth the blood...for politicians in India. For the PLA they don't have the advantage of having half a million men in a disputed territory that the InA had. No doubt that China is willing to out bleed India, the situation could become a stalemate after InA moves and making anyother moves impossible with out another large scale operation. And after looking at a map of disputed and claimed territory InA will appear to be the victorious side.
            Remember how the Chinese operate. They fight until they can fight no more and then step aside for a fresh force.
            A fresh force? But they won't achieve anything besides breaking nerves.
            For every one bomb you drop on the AD guys is one bomb you have less against their regular infantry. They really don't care about your birds if you're too busy killing their birds and ground AD net.
            I know. The InAF is no USAF. But I think the InAF could avoid dropping bombs on AD targets. Even though its dangerous, bombing supply lines and fortifications could be worth risking a few FishBeds. The newest Bisons have KAB-500 tv guided bomb and external jammers. The external jammers will give radar guided sams some difficulte times.
            The PLA airborn brigade was created to move to the battlefield the fastest and hold it until normal infantry arrive. Could the InA paratroopers do the same? I don't think they were used in Kargil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              Well I imagine the InA wants to return the 1962 favour and undermine the capability of the Communist.
              The Soviets did far more than that and the CCP did not blink though I think they were scared crapless at a few points. Remember that the Chinese had discovered Soviet plans to nuke their way to Lop Nor and both countries were on a war footing in 1973 after their clashes.

              The Vietnamese between 1979 and 1984 even occupied a few Chinese hills until the 2nd Sino-Vietnamese War in 1984 in which the PLA secured their borders once and for all, shifting the fight for good into Vietnam.

              Things have changed greatly since 1962.

              Even more so if you consider that the Chinese have another army already, the Pakistani Army.

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              Even if the Chinese would try to bleed the InA out they'll have to retire sometime if the InA does what Pak NLI did in Kargil.
              Why? The Pak NLI had an advantage that cannot be counted on in this scenario. New Dehli lacked the political will to cross into Pak territory to cut the LOCs. You cannot assert the Chinese would be unwilling to cross into Indian territory to do just that.

              I really don't want to push an old saying and it's not entirely correct but amateurs think strategy and tactics, professionals think logistics.

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              If the InA sneaks in grabs some peaks with the help of air lifts they could get cumfortable. There are a lot of small villages near the Indian boarder in Tibet that could be worth the blood...for politicians in India.
              And if the 15ABC re-enforce Pak positions? You're not seeing the big picture.

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              For the PLA they don't have the advantage of having half a million men in a disputed territory that the InA had.
              500,000 men in hostile territory is an advantage?

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              No doubt that China is willing to out bleed India, the situation could become a stalemate after InA moves and making anyother moves impossible with out another large scale operation. And after looking at a map of disputed and claimed territory InA will appear to be the victorious side.
              And if the Chinese manage to kill an Indian Army corps in Tibet? Or if they manage to cut off the Indian forces from India? You're thinking too much in terms of occupied territory and not in decisive actions.

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              A fresh force? But they won't achieve anything besides breaking nerves.
              Phase III is the Battle of Annhilation. They're out to kill all enemy forces within their AO.

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              I know. The InAF is no USAF. But I think the InAF could avoid dropping bombs on AD targets. Even though its dangerous, bombing supply lines and fortifications could be worth risking a few FishBeds. The newest Bisons have KAB-500 tv guided bomb and external jammers. The external jammers will give radar guided sams some difficulte times.
              Avoid doing SEAD? You may succeed in the 1st sortie but you will be hard press to do a second and not even be able to mount a 3rd.

              Originally posted by dabrownguy
              The PLA airborn brigade was created to move to the battlefield the fastest and hold it until normal infantry arrive. Could the InA paratroopers do the same? I don't think they were used in Kargil.
              The big difference is that the PLA 15ABC was flying in to pre-positioned equipment. They didn't need to carry their toys with them. Their toys were waiting for them. Hence, they can do alot more with fewer flights. Indian paras flying into Tibet would not have this advantage.

              Incidently, I'm not being pro-Chinese here but just pointing out the flaws in your thinking.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by dabrownguy

                Prithvis are indeed road mobile.
                Sorry, didn't see this.

                The big difference is that the Indians are not practising salvo launches and the applications for salvo launches, ie recee and target eval.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Sir are you suggesting that Pak gets involved the PLA airborn birgade will or could be deployed to Pak? Thats not gonna make a big difference. It'll just be stupid to send them to Pak when they're needed in Tibet. Also it would be easier for InA para's to be dropped near the boarder where they recieve air drops and wait for InA infantry. The PLA would be lacking armoured and mobility compared to InA.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by dabrownguy
                    Sir are you suggesting that Pak gets involved the PLA airborn birgade will or could be deployed to Pak?
                    I'm not suggesting. I'm stating it as an outright fact. During the 80s border debacle, the CCP wanted war. The PLA stated that their only chance for victory was to open a 2nd front war through Pakistan. The CCP gave the PLA its go. The incident, as you recall, was difused when the Indian Foreign Minister travelled to China and sat down and hash out all the problems.

                    Originally posted by dabrownguy
                    Thats not gonna make a big difference. It'll just be stupid to send them to Pak when they're needed in Tibet.
                    You're not seeing the big picture. The Indian operational picture has just changed. Instead of taking territory inside Tibet, they're now repulsing attacks on two fronts which requires at least a pyschological if not a physical re-orientation on two fronts. In other words, with this one move, the Chinese have took the initiative. And for the InA, this is very, very bad.

                    Originally posted by dabrownguy
                    Also it would be easier for InA para's to be dropped near the boarder where they recieve air drops and wait for InA infantry.
                    Ok, you're speaking of a tactical envelopment. When the PLAAF flew two regts into Tibet, that was a strategic move. Two different concepts here.

                    In any event, because of the kind of terrain, you will have leakage on both sides.

                    Originally posted by dabrownguy
                    The PLA would be lacking armoured and mobility compared to InA.
                    Why do you guys ALWAYS forget us Engineers?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      OOE,

                      Don't forget the airlift of two brigades to Sapxxxx Sector (sp?) gave the PLA a pause. They were surprised that IA could achieve local tactical superiority at a short moment's notice. If you look at the terrain, you can see basically all you need is local tactical superiority at a few chokepoints and no one can push you out.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Blademaster
                        OOE,

                        Don't forget the airlift of two brigades to Sapxxxx Sector (sp?) gave the PLA a pause. They were surprised that IA could achieve local tactical superiority at a short moment's notice.
                        I'm not but that's the tactical advantage; not strategic. However, I keep repeating two points

                        The Chinese have an undeserved arrogance against India.
                        The Chinese are more than willing to fight India down to the last Pakistani.

                        Originally posted by Blademaster
                        If you look at the terrain, you can see basically all you need is local tactical superiority at a few chokepoints and no one can push you out.
                        And the Brigadier and I have taken pains to explain that those chokepoints are also death traps (don't know if you followed that). They're well known by both sides and well targetted by both sides. Even if you can get in, you're not going to get out.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                          And the Brigadier and I have taken pains to explain that those chokepoints are also death traps (don't know if you followed that). They're well known by both sides and well targetted by both sides. Even if you can get in, you're not going to get out.
                          Sir, and that is the main reason that both nations will not go to war, since a decisive victory is very, very difficult. The options for any thrust are very limited and known to both sides, and the these areas are so vital to either nation that gains by any side would force the other to take drastic and destructive measures, that both want to avoid.

                          Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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                          • #43
                            Everytime I visit this scenario, I'm appalled at the amount of blood that is required.

                            And yet, internet warriors are determined to fight this war.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                              Everytime I visit this scenario, I'm appalled at the amount of blood that is required.

                              And yet, internet warriors are determined to fight this war.
                              They just need good finger muscles!!!

                              But isnt it better that we are restricting it to internet.
                              What's the difference between people who pray in church and those who pray in casinos?
                              The ones in the casinos are serious.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lemontree
                                Sir, and that is the main reason that both nations will not go to war, since a decisive victory is very, very difficult. The options for any thrust are very limited and known to both sides, and the these areas are so vital to either nation that gains by any side would force the other to take drastic and destructive measures, that both want to avoid.
                                Well China is certainly poking into India's eyes by restricting the flow of Brahmaputra and Ganges River in Tibet when they build dams in Tibet.

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