Gatling guns at Little Big Horn - could Custer have won?

[Parihaka]

Parihaka,
Thanks for the link. However, it sounds like the times reflect how long it took for particular units to muster into formation, rather than actual crew drill times

Yeah, I couldn't work out whether that meant to muster or to be ready to fire?
I'll keep looking

[Bill]

Parihaka,
Thanks for the link. However, it sounds like the times reflect how long it took for particular units to muster into formation, rather than actual crew drill times

From hitched on a wagon or mule, it can't be more than 90 seconds from first order to first firing as long as loaded magazines and the crew are at hand. This is one big WAG here, but my instincts tell me the following:

There are far fewer steps than a cannon has to go through to prepare for firing, so it's basically unhitch, swivel to the proper azimuth, brace the carraige, insert a magazine, and crank away. That may be a bit of an oversimplification, but probably not by much.

At any rate, with a proper scouting plan implemented even if it took 2 hours to set them up they'd have been ready in plenty of time- and on a battlefield of custers choosing and supported by cannons and with men in prepared defenses.

It's all about the scoutin'.

[Officer of Engineers]

Bill, need to pick your brain (or more likely being damned lazy). I always wanted to research why Sitting Bull ran to Canada after he won the battle.

[Bill]

Bill, need to pick your brain (or more likely being damned lazy). I always wanted to research why Sitting Bull ran to Canada after he won the battle.

Well IMO he'd helped to achieve the political and military objective of the Souix in the complete destruction of an entire US Army unit in a decisive engagement(and a famous and prominent unit with a famous and flamboyant commander at that).
He knew that the entire US Army would be coming for blood after that, so he wisely went somewhere the US Army would not follow. Can't hardly blame him there. A historian could probably add a lot more color to that story, but based on what i know that's an accurate if not basic assessment.

[Officer of Engineers]

It is an extremely accurate assessemet as far as I know but here's the premis, the moment he won the battle, he knew he lost the war?

[Bill]

It is an extremely accurate assessemet as far as I know but here's the premis, the moment he won the battle, he knew he lost the war?

Maybe he had a Yamamoto-like epiphany, i don't really know. I reckon anyone with a shred of common sense would know the whole US military was gonna come crashing down like a freight train though, so i'm sure he'd at least considered it at great length. The man was afterall, a legend. :)

[Bill]

The more i think about this the more likely it is to me that Sitting Bull was pulling a Geronimo or Pancho Vila move. Ie, stay scarce until the enemy tires looking for you.

Seems to have worked out quite well for him too...

[sparten]

Like the German tribes after Teutonberg Forest. Although the Empire beat a hasty retreat across the Rhine, Germanicus made many tribes wish that they had never won afore mentioned battle in his various "pacifictaion" missions across it. IIRC after Little Bighorn all Indians were ftrced to live on reservations?

[2DREZQ]

Gatling Gun - Model 1876 on Original Carriage - "The Custer Gun"




Lot 1. This model 1876 Gatling Gun is considered a Classic among collectors. - Only 18 of this particular model were ever made and only 7 exist today. It is the most desirable of all Gatling guns both for it's visual appeal and the fact that it is considered "The Indian War Custer Gun." The M-1876 was the model that General Custer had for the 7th Cavalry in Dakota Territory but decided not to take on that fateful day at Little Big Horn.
This serial number #179 Model 1876 Gatling gun was sold by the U.S. Government to Bannerman after the turn of the century, who kept it as a display and never offered it for sale until his company closed in the 1950's. We believe that Don Toppel purchased it from Bannerman (he authored the book "The Gatling Gun" in 1971.) A private collector in New Jersey bought it in the 1970"s, owned it for approximately 10 years and sold it to another collector in New York in 1988. I purchased the gun directly from him in October 1999. It is without doubt, the finest Model 1876 Gatling gun in existence and the "only one" in private hands.

Catalog: 122 - "(Cat 122) The Wild West" Price. . . . . $ 195,000.00

here

There has been some dispute as to whether this was actually the model Custer had. If he did, in fact have the Model 1865 instead, then he would have been hampered by that models inability to traverse while firing. (You had to move the whole gun carriage.) Also, the '76 was chambered in .45/70, while the earlier gun would have probably been a .50 cal. Also, the older gun had feeding and headspace problems, as well as a nasty habit of smacking it's own front frame with a bullet if cranked to fast. (Something a scared soldier just might do.)

Update: According to Joseph Berk in his book "The Gatling Gun 19th Century Machine Gun to 21st Century Vulcan":

"Many references state that the guns in Lt. Low's battery were.45/70 Gatlings. While the .45/70 was the standard infantry cartridge at the time, and the newer Model 1874 Gatling gun had been procured by the army in that caliber, the guns Custer turned down were not chambered for the .45/70. The preponderance of evidence, including diary accounts by memebers of Terry's expedition, shows the guns were .50-caliber. The model is unknown, bu the Gatlings could have been either Model 1866 or 1871. In a small way, this seemingly insignificant fact further fueled the controversy. Hed the lighter and more mobile Model 1874 been available to him, Custer might have taken the guns along."

[Adalwolf]

I don't think the Gatling Guns would have saved Custer or his men. They would have killed a lot more Native American warriors, but Custer would have still been overrun.

It is interesting to note that the Native Americans were actually better armed than Custers men, since many had repeating weapons, while Custer's men has single shot rifles.

[Adalwolf]

Like the German tribes after Teutonberg Forest. Although the Empire beat a hasty retreat across the Rhine, Germanicus made many tribes wish that they had never won afore mentioned battle in his various "pacifictaion" missions across it. IIRC after Little Bighorn all Indians were ftrced to live on reservations?

It took several more years, but eventually all Natives were forced onto reservations or flee to Canada.

[S2]

Reconnaissance

The sun rises early on the high plains of eastern Montana in late June.

Custer had a Crow scouting party led by a white lieutenant positioned to see the Little Big Horn Valley as the sun broached the eastern horizon. The light descended from the highest reaches of the western ridgeline demarking the valley floor and, as it rose higher in the eastern sky, slowly cast its light deeper into the lower slopes and, finally, the valley floor itself.

Almost immediately, the Crow scouts began dancing. When asked why by the lieutenant, it was explained that they were doing their "death dance". Not understanding, the lieutenant asked for an elaboration. The senior crow pointed across to the far western end of the valley, some ten miles or so distant from their O.P.

With his spyglass, the lieutenant looked. The ground along the lower end of the western slopes seemed to be alive from his distance. On more careful inspection, the lieutenant realized that he was staring at ponies. War ponies. By his estimate, over 20,000 ponies and horses were grazing along those western slopes.

Custer knew early that morning that it'd be a long day.

[Maggot]

If one of Custer's own troops fragged him before he went crazy on the advance, they would have had a much better chance.

The Last Stand is a bit of a misnomer too. There was no stand. It was a route and a massacre. A bad officer got a lot of troops dead, in a campaign that was largely a political stunt to save his reputation.

[Shamus]

If one of Custer's own troops fragged him before he went crazy on the advance, they would have had a much better chance.

The Last Stand is a bit of a misnomer too. There was no stand. It was a route and a massacre. A bad officer got a lot of troops dead, in a campaign that was largely a political stunt to save his reputation.

Very good point Sir Maggot.This officer was also responsible for getting a lot of Michigan Calvarymen killed in the Civil War.IIRC he had the highest casualty rate of any Union Calvary Commander in the war.

[Ironduke]

With his spyglass, the lieutenant looked. The ground along the lower end of the western slopes seemed to be alive from his distance. On more careful inspection, the lieutenant realized that he was staring at ponies. War ponies. By his estimate, over 20,000 ponies and horses were grazing along those western slopes.

Wasn't Custer outnumbered somewhere between 3:1 to 9:1? The Indians also held a technological advantage, I think the guns that were used buy each side could be compared to the M16A1 vs. the AK-47. The guns Custer's men had were small caliber, jammed, with the cartridges having to be pulled out with a knife, and the Indians' guns were large caliber and could shoot 25 rounds per minute.