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  • #16
    Originally posted by lemontree
    For once I agree with Plat. The anti hire-n-fire demostrations and protests are part of democratic process and the govt had to listen to the voice of the people. A secure work environment, is what they are fighting for - what is so wrong about that?
    In contrast the Brits have passed a new legislation that if a British national looses his/her job due to his work getting out sourced, then the foreign firm getting the out-sourced contract will have to compensate him/her. This is BS. We are in a global economical village - either they accept it or lump it.
    Lemontree,
    Are the protestors of the French policy truly the voice of the people? After all, was it not the French legislature that passed the law? I haven't been following the story too closely, but I would guess that those protesting represent the 26 and younger demographic, and not necessarily the will of the entire French people. On the surface, it appears as if the semi-reversal is appeasement to a particular group.

    Originally posted by Platinum786
    . The french deserve praise for acting out against the tyrnany of fat cats and thier parlimentarian puppets.

    What sort of bullsh!t law is that?!
    Plat,
    Does repealing the law really stick it to the fat cats and the parlimentarian puppets? After all, France does have the fourth highest unemployment rate in the entire EU zone. The status quo appears not to be working - it seems to me like getting the law reversed is more like sticking it to themselves. Anything that aritifically inflates salaries or produces stickiness in the job market means that it cannot adjust effectively, resulting in artificially inflating your unemployment. That's Econ 101.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

    Comment


    • #17
      [QUOTE=shek]Lemontree,
      Are the protestors of the French policy truly the voice of the people? [ /QUOTE]

      it was the voice of the people: 68% of the population was against this law. Thats a large majority.

      Comment


      • #18
        [QUOTE=Ellopian]
        Originally posted by shek
        Lemontree,
        Are the protestors of the French policy truly the voice of the people? [ /QUOTE]

        it was the voice of the people: 68% of the population was against this law. Thats a large majority.
        Thanks - I didn't realize that the students had so much support. Well, let them eat their cake, 9% unemployment and all.
        "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

        Comment


        • #19
          Those of you who are against the CPE law, imagine running your own business for a minute. Think of the people you need to hire for your business. Then understand the fact that you may be saddled with these people for LIFE. You pretty much can't get rid of someone you don't like or not productive unless he commits axe murder, and even then it would be suspect.

          Businesses must have the latitude to freely hire and fire the people they want. It's the way to improve efficiency. You get rid of someone who's not up to task and exchange that someone with a more productive person.

          Businesses are not here to perform a social service. They are here to make a profit. The best way to make a profit is to be efficient. The way to be efficient is to hire the best qualified and most productive people at the least cost.

          Employers don't just fire someone without a good reason. Usually that reason is the worker's lack of efficiency. Lack of efficiency makes it hard for the business to compete.

          Current French law makes it nearly impossible to fire someone. They need to make it easier for the employers. Lack of job security also makes people more dynamic and fluid. People are willing to try different things and maybe even move up in the economic ladder, instead of working the same old job for 25 years and retire.
          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

          Comment


          • #20
            [QUOTE=shek]
            Originally posted by Ellopian

            Thanks - I didn't realize that the students had so much support. Well, let them eat their cake, 9% unemployment and all.
            It's roughly 9.6% national unemployment. Around 25% for early 20s. Near 50% for the "troubled youths in the disadvantaged areas."
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by gunnut
              Those of you who are against the CPE law, imagine running your own business for a minute. Think of the people you need to hire for your business. Then understand the fact that you may be saddled with these people for LIFE. You pretty much can't get rid of someone you don't like or not productive unless he commits axe murder, and even then it would be suspect.

              Businesses must have the latitude to freely hire and fire the people they want. It's the way to improve efficiency. You get rid of someone who's not up to task and exchange that someone with a more productive person.

              Businesses are not here to perform a social service. They are here to make a profit. The best way to make a profit is to be efficient. The way to be efficient is to hire the best qualified and most productive people at the least cost.

              Employers don't just fire someone without a good reason. Usually that reason is the worker's lack of efficiency. Lack of efficiency makes it hard for the business to compete.

              Current French law makes it nearly impossible to fire someone. They need to make it easier for the employers. Lack of job security also makes people more dynamic and fluid. People are willing to try different things and maybe even move up in the economic ladder, instead of working the same old job for 25 years and retire.
              This is pure jungle; What are you, a misanthrop? So what is the solution? Treat workers like craddle to make them more dynamic? Have u ever been an employee?
              You suck, i know this is personnal attack and i regret it, but you are a monster.
              OVER

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ellopian
                This is pure jungle; What are you, a misanthrop? So what is the solution? Treat workers like craddle to make them more dynamic? Have u ever been an employee?
                You suck, i know this is personnal attack and i regret it, but you are a monster.
                OVER
                Firstly personal attacks of this nature are frowned upon by the moderators of this board, secondly, why did a simple statement of basic employment economics evince such a response?
                Thirdly, why should an employer be forced to employ someone who is non-productive?
                In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                Leibniz

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by parihaka
                  Firstly personal attacks of this nature are frowned upon by the moderators of this board, secondly, why did a simple statement of basic employment economics evince such a response?
                  Thirdly, why should an employer be forced to employ someone who is non-productive?
                  I don't allow you to give me behaviour lessons. I insulted nobody.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ellopian
                    I insulted nobody.
                    Originally posted by Ellopian
                    You suck, i know this is personnal attack and i regret it, but you are a monster.
                    Everybody, let's wave bye-bye to Ellopian. Oh Ellopian, bye bye.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      yep
                      In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                      Leibniz

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Krauthammer, genius that he is, is right on point, AGAIN:


                        Sunday, Apr. 09, 2006
                        Liberty, Equality, Mediocrity
                        The strangest revolution the French have ever produced
                        By CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER

                        The French are justly proud of their revolutionary tradition. After all, 1789 begat 1848 and 1871 and indeed inspired just about every revolution for a century, up to and including the Russian Revolution of 1917. Say what you will about the outcomes, but the origins were quite glorious: defiant, courageous, bloody, romantic uprisings against all that was fixed and immovable and oppressive: kings, czars, churches, oligarchies, tyrannies of every kind.

                        And now, in a new act of revolutionary creativity, the French are at it again. Millions of young people and trade unionists, joined by some underclass opportunists looking for a good night out, have taken to the streets again. To rise up against what? In massive protest against a law that would allow employers to fire an employee less than 26 years old in the first two years of his contract.

                        That's a very long way from liberty, equality, fraternity. The spirit of this revolution is embodied most perfectly in the slogan on many placards: CONTRE LA PRÉCARITÉ, or "Against Precariousness." The precariousness of being subject to being fired. The precariousness of the untenured life, even if the work is boring and the boss no longer wants you. And ultimately, the precariousness of life itself, any weakening of the government guarantee of safety, conformity, regularity.

                        That is something very new. And it is not just a long way from the ideals of 1789. It is the very antithesis. It represents an escape from freedom, a demand for an arbitrary powerful state in whose bosom you can settle for life.

                        Nor are the current riots about equality. On the contrary. Their effect would be to enforce inequality. The unemployment rate in France is 10%. For young people under 26 it is 23%, and almost 1 in 10 kids who leave high school don't have a job five years after taking the baccalaureate. Much of that unemployment encompasses those of the alienated immigrant underclass, who are less educated, less acculturated and less likely ever to be hired than the mostly native student rioters. And these young rioters want to keep things just that way--to rely not just on their advantages of class, education and ethnicity but also on an absolute guarantee from the state that their very first job will be for life, with no one to challenge them for it.

                        Ironically, the better imitation of the spirit of 1789 came from precisely those immigrant challengers kept locked away in France's satellite suburbs. It is those poor ambitious huddled masses who late last year lit up the country for three weeks with nights of burning cars. Those underclass riots were politically inchoate, but they did represent the fury of people desperate to escape the marginality imposed on them by their ethnicity and the rigidity of the French bureaucratic state. Those immigrant riots, which had an equal touch of the existential anarchy of the student revolution of 1968, were, if anything, a revolt for precariousness--for risk, danger, upheaval.

                        Against precariousness? The vibrancy of a society can almost be measured by its precariousness. Free markets correlate not just with prosperity and wealth but also with dynamism. The classic example is China today, an economic and social Wild West with entire classes, regions, families and individuals rising and falling in ways that must terrify today's young demonstrators in Paris. In France not a single enterprise founded in the past 40 years has managed to break into the ranks of the nation's 25 biggest companies.

                        Precariousness is an essential element in the life of the entrepreneur, a French word now more associated with the much despised Anglo-Saxon "liberalism" and its merciless dog-eat-dog capitalism. But these days the best examples of the entrepreneurial spirit are hardly Anglo-Saxon: China, India, Korea, Chile, all rising and growing, even as France and much of Europe decline.

                        Against precariousness? That is perhaps to be expected in a country where 76% of 15-to-30-year-olds say they aspire to civil service jobs from which it's almost impossible to be fired. This flight from risk is not just a sign of civilizational senescence. It is a parody of the welfare state. Yes, the old should be protected from precariousness because they are exhausted; the sick, because they are too weak. But privileged students under the age of 26? They cannot endure 24 months of precariousness at the prime of life, the height of their energy?

                        There have, I suppose, been other peoples in other places who yearned for a life of mediocrity. But leave it to the French to make a revolution in its name.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Ellopian,
                          Gunnut simply pointed out Economics 101. Have you ever taken an economics course? Did they not go over how markets work? The inefficiencies that are introduced when people try to "manage" markets? There are certainly some exceptions, but what you are arguing about. Anyways, I suspect that you will not be around much longer since you don't wish to comply with the rules of the board.
                          "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ellopian
                            This is pure jungle; What are you, a misanthrop? So what is the solution? Treat workers like craddle to make them more dynamic? Have u ever been an employee?
                            You suck, i know this is personnal attack and i regret it, but you are a monster.
                            OVER
                            Ellopian,
                            If the inability to fire employees doesn't hinder Frances unemployment rate, can you please explain to us why France has such a high unemployment rate, especially among its youth?
                            "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ellopian
                              This is pure jungle; What are you, a misanthrop? So what is the solution? Treat workers like craddle to make them more dynamic? Have u ever been an employee?
                              You suck, i know this is personnal attack and i regret it, but you are a monster.
                              OVER
                              If you can't hang with the big dogs...

                              Consider this your first & only public warning. Plus I'll refrain from calling you an *******...but will instead think it very loudly...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ellopian
                                Have u ever been an employee?
                                I was an employee for 20 years, and now I'm an employer. Good personel don't get fired, they thrive.
                                No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                                I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                                even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                                He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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