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Thread: Allah and his 9 year old wife vs Sweden

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    Allah and his 9 year old wife vs Sweden

    Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?
    Wednesday, May 04, 2005

    Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing?

    M21NOTE: There is so much damning info in here the whole damned article should be highlighted in red bold letters...

    A top Muslim scholar said the Muslim minority in Sweden would abide by Swedish law in confronting a Christian preacher who insulted Prophet Muhammad, urging his fellow Swedish Muslims not to take the law into their own hands or commit any violent acts to avenge the remarks of the Christian cleric.

    Norwegian celebrity evangelist preacher Runar Søgaard, in a sermon at Filadelfia church in Stockholm on March 20, repeated claims that Muhammad was "a confused pedophile" since his wives included a girl aged nine years old.(WTF???)


    Søgaard is under protection by Swedish police after receiving death threats.(imagine that)

    The sermon has triggered fears of a religious war in Sweden.

    It is essential according to Islamic teachings to respond to those who defame Muhammad.

    Muslim extremists in Sweden have urged Al-Qaida's al-Zarqawi to take action in the matter, and radicals of the Salafyist variety have posted a very explicit threat to launch a wave of terrorist attacks against Sweden because of the "insult". The threats were posted on a number of known Islamist forums and were accompanied by rather lurid graphics.


    However, Fjordman has documented that Swedish Muslims called for terror attacks against Sweden even before this incident happened.
    This text was posted on a large Swedish Muslim forum in February 2005: "Wallahi I pray that Allah will severely punish all those who are involved in this war against Islam. And that Sweden will feel the punishment of the Mujahdiin that the USA and Spain and other countries have done for their involvement in Iraq. May Allah punish this hypocrite government, Ameen. Please give me evidence that kuffar (infidels) should NOT be allowed to kill. Why should you not be allowed to call Sweden Darul Harb (the House of War)? Ulama have stated many times that every state that does not judge according to sharia, and does not have a pact with the Muslims or is paying the Jiziya is a part of Dar ul-Harb, which is allowed to attack and their wealth permitted for all Muslims. Why not follow the example of what our Mujahid brother in Holland did with that pig Theo van Gogh? That brother's action really made a difference in the world, and because of it the Muslims now enjoy some respect and eminence among the kuffar. Sure, Muslims enjoy "protection" in Sweden as citizens. So what? There are Muslims in the USA and Israel, too, getting "protection". What difference does it make? Allah made Jihad compulsory. A Muslim has to enter fully into Islam, not just ignore issues as he feels like. This is Islam, not a lunch buffet."

    Muslims have been spreading extremism and hate in Sweden for some time. Journalist Salam Karam had on several occasions visited the large mosque on Medborgarplatsen in Stockholm. The aim was to compare the Imam's speeches in Arabic with the interpreters Swedish translations. His report showed that the violent attacks against USA and the West were never translated. The largest mosque in Stockholm was spreading double messages. What the Imam said in his speech in Arabic didn't match how the text was interpreted in Swedish. “America rapes Islam,” the Imam roared in Arabic from the platform. The interpreter translated to Swedish: “We condemn USA's torture of Iraqi prisoners.” Adding to sermons such as these, Radio Islam, based in Sweden, keeps Nazi hate literature such as Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" online in several languages, including English. Should a terror attack occur in Sweden, the country may be unprepared for it. An examination of Sweden's preparedness for a terrorist attack by the Swedish Defense Research Agency, FOI, has found the country’s state agencies lacking.[B]

    The threats against Sweden should serve as a lesson to those who still claim that Islamic terrorism is caused by "Israeli aggression" or "American foreign policy". Sweden, a retirement home for foreign war criminals and reputedly where Iraqi ex-dictator Saddam Hussein wants to spend his last years, doesn't have a colonial past. Yet it is probably the most pathetic dhimmi nation in the Western world, even if facing some stiff competition for the title. It subsidizes Palestinian terror conferences at a time when anti-Jewish harassment by Muslims is so bad that Swedish Jews sign up for service in the IDF to escape. IKEA, one of its largest companies, censors its own manuals in order not to offend Muslims. A Swedish court recently judged according to sharia. I have earlier read suggestions by a columnist in Sweden's largest newspaper, Aftonbladet, that Sweden should change its national anthem into "something multicultural". Two Swedish girls were also sent home from school for wearing sweaters showing a tiny Swedish flag. The headmaster was concerned that this might be deemed offensive by some immigrants. Sweden crawls to Muslims in every way imaginable, and it still isn't enough. There are still Muslim radicals who want to attack it. How are leftists going to spin it when the terror attacks come? Since Islamic terror is caused by occupation and oppression, which illegal settlements are Swedes going to withdraw from to please the Muslims? Stockholm? They've already de facto withdrawn from Malmö.

    Few areas in Sweden are worse hit by the current troubles than Malmö, the nation's third largest city. According to some estimates, the rapidly growing Muslim immigrant population may turn Malmö into a Muslim majority city within about ten years. It will be the first major Scandinavian city to enjoy this honor, although perhaps not the last. Native Swedes are leaving the city in droves, as crime is rampant and the police publicly admit they don't control all parts of the city. There are now gangs in Malmö specialized in assaulting old people visiting the graves of relatives. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. The city is descending into general chaos. Fights in the city's movie theatres have become a recurrent problem. Numbers released in January 2005 indicate a sharp rise in the number of rape charges in Malmö. Thomas Anderberg, responsible for statistics at the Malmö Police, says there was a doubling of the number of reported rapes by ambush in 2004, following what was already a decade of steadily increasing numbers of sexual crimes. "I think that’s great news," says Anna Gustafsson, head of the Domestic Violence Unit at the Malmö Police. She suggests that the increase is due to the fact that women who otherwise wouldn’t press charges for rape now choose to contact the police. In other words, Gustafsson claims that we are dealing with a “technical” increase, not a real one. However, national statistics reveal that reported rapes against children have almost doubled in Sweden during the past ten years. The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 – 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower.

    Malmö has recently taken another logical step towards its Islamization: Starting from the fall of 2005, the district of Hyllie will begin education in Arabic only for groups of immigrant preschool children. The idea is that once the children learn the language of their parents, it will become easier for them to learn Swedish as well. So the Swedish state paying for educating Swedish citizens on Swedish ground in Arabic is somehow supposed to increase integration. On the other hand, perhaps being good dhimmis and teaching in Arabic can stop one of the latest fads in Sweden: Burning schools. At least 139 schools in Sweden suffered arson attacks during 2002 alone. Such as a recent incident in Malmö, where three schools were put on fire during one night. "Teenage boys" are suspected to behind the arson. **örn Vinberg from the fire department in Kroksbäck in the Malmö area says it's humiliating and degrading to put out fires again and again in the same immigrant areas, with school kids laughing at them and lighting a new one just afterwards. His colleagues have been to the same place no less than twenty times, all totally unnecessary.

    While Malmö may be an especially appalling example, instability is spreading to most of Sweden's urban and suburban areas, and now permeates all levels of society. Street violence of all kinds is soaring on a national level. Private security companies are in great demand in major Swedish cities, as a serious lack of police to combat rising crime has made many citizens tired of being robbed. Amnesty International concluded that acts of violence against women had spiralled upward in Sweden in the last 15 years, a jump that could not be explained away as merely a greater willingness by women to report the incidents. A large majority of Swedish Members of Parliament, but even many politicians on lower and local levels, say they experience threats or violence. Many of them say the harassment is so bad they consider leaving politics.

    In Husby, a Stockholm suburb, gangs of immigrant youngsters are harassing other visitors who come to use the swimming pool. A Swedish school class was attacked and robbed by a large group of teenage boys shouting "Swedish bastards! (Svennejävlar) You don't belong here!" The police in Husby are aware of the problem, but say it is an integration problem that the police can't solve alone. In another case, some twenty youths armed with iron rods and chains smashed the Hjulsta school in Stockholm. They also threatened and attacked several of the pupils. Neither the students nor the teachers dare testify to the police about the incident. Their fears are well-founded, as threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003.

    Sweden, only a few decades ago an extremely homogeneous society, has had more immigration during the past years than almost any other Western nation. Two out of three new Swedes are actually immigrants. While political parties in neighboring Denmark quarrel over whether to roll back immigration even further, there is virtually no public debate in Sweden. This despite the fact that Sweden granted 24,553 residence permits under family reunification last year, compared to Denmark's 4791. Danish politicians have justified strict laws as a bid to prevent arranged marriages, or matches coerced by immigrant parents to placate families in the home country. Denmark has also passed a resolution stating that family reunification applications by young people should be rejected if the couple's parents entered an arranged marriage themselves. Sweden's politicians view arranged marriages as a positive tradition: a cultural pattern that immigrants should be allowed to preserve even in Sweden. The Swedish government feels that interfering in arranged marriages is an encroachment upon private life. In addition, immigrant couples can apply for family reunification in Sweden even if they've never seen each other before. The nation's liberal reunification laws have led to almost double the number of immigrants in Sweden as in Denmark.

    This massive, uncontrolled immigration is starting to take its toll. The number of ghettos, a phenomenon that until recently was unheard of in wealthy and egalitarian Scandinavian nations, has been increasing explosively. 14 years ago, there were only 3 such areas in all of Sweden. Today, there are 136. Stockholm politician Annika Billström warns against the dangers of creating ghettos in Sweden. Rock throwing and attacks against buses and trains are increasing problems in some suburbs. In Malmö the bus lines in the area of Rosengård have been cancelled. In Stockholm, the authorities went even further and stopped both the bus traffic in the Tensta suburb and the train to Nynäshamn. Head of the bus company in the city of Uppsala, Claes-Göran Alm, is considering doing the same, as the harassment is costing too much money and is putting their employees at risk. Benny Persson is selling window glass in the areas south of Stockholm. According to him, they sometimes have to jump into the car and leave the spot, as they are met with the harassment that some of the bus companies in the suburbs are experiencing: Stone throwing and threats. The same thing is reported from Gothenburg, Sweden’s second largest city. The company Hemglass are now attempting to run double crews in their cars to face the problems, but they still have had to completely abandon an area outside Södertälje. If you get stuck in an elevator outside Stockholm, you risk staying there for a long time. The repair personnel now demand security guards present when they arrive, since several of their employees have been physically attacked. The most serious problem, however, is the delay of ambulances and the fire department. According to the Emergency Central, attacks against them have become commonplace in the cities. Every Saturday, at least five to ten times emergency personnel are asking for police escort to be able to do their job. The segregation in the worst hit areas of Sweden has not been broken, despite many attempts. This according to a new study that has followed about 270 000 persons that have lived in 20 of the worst hit areas of the Stockholm region. Researchers Roger Andersson and Åsa Bråmå have followed all the 270 000 persons during the 1990s. These areas have received billions from different funds designed to prevent segregation. But the percentage of persons with non-Swedish ethnic background has increased from 57 to 73 during this period.

    How can all of this be allowed to unfold in a seemingly civilized country? Jonathan Friedman is a New York Jew now living with his Swedish wife in the southern Swedish city of Malmø where he teaches socio-anthropology at the University of Lund. As an outsider he is able to comment candidly on issues which native Swedes would be quite unable to for fear of retribution for overstepping the invisible PC bounds. "No debate about immigration polices is possible, the subject is simply avoided. Sweden has such a close connection between the various powerful groups, politicians, journalists, etc. The political class is closed, isolated. And add to that, that the Social Democrats have had something like near monopoly on the power. The elite, in their isolation and due to their isolation, has become more and more scared of the people and what they might think and believe. Jonathan Friedman thinks circumstances in Sweden are special also because Sweden has a long tradition of maintaining a correct surface. "Bergman's movies weren't about anything else. It was all about demons hiding under the dry and correct surface. The Swedish supreme court has in a ruling in principle made clear the fact that racism is something which is done by Swedes and not anyone else. This despite many of the gang rapes, wherein by the way immigrants are massively overrepresented as perpetrators, have clear racist traits. But this they don't want to know, and this we are not allowed to know." "Sweden has lots of conflicts and a rising insecurity. We have witnessed several incidents of what I would call classical racist nature, wherein two groups of people violently clash. Crime is going up. The newly arrived are largely unemployed, and this costs the welfare state much money. The welfare state is based on a closed system, it can handle a limited group of people. It can't in any way deal with an open society, but this kind of insight is too much for politicians in general. When voting in Sweden you pick your voting card from the political representatives outside the voting booths, and then walk across the hall to the voting booth and select which candidate you want to vote for - only there inside the booth where you select the party candidate are you hidden from view. This means everybody can see which party you are going to vote for, and in a society like Sweden where social control is very widespread this creates an atmosphere where certain political parties are heavily discriminated against.

    Norwegian journalist and member of Human Rights Service Hege Storhaug puts it this way: "Is Swedish culture worth keeping?" I put this question to Lise Bergh, the Swedish government representative of immigration policies, on the Nordic conference on immigration in Stavanger [Norwegian city] April 7th. "What is Swedish culture? And then I suppose I have answered the question" answered Berg without trying to conceal her cultural-self disparagement in either words or facial expressions. As you make your bed so you lie [what goes around comes around] as they say. In Sweden, the leadership seems to show Europe's most extensive cultural self-denial, or rather -- a deeply felt self loathing, which many feel is the perfect recipe for driving a peaceful nation to destruction. My question to Lise Bergh was far from randomly formulated. Half a year ago, from a pulpit in a Mosque belonging to the Kurdish Organisation, and "respectfully" veiled, the former minister for integration. Mona Sahlin, said that many Swedes are envious of the immigrants because they, unlike the Swedes, have a culture, a history, something which ties them together. The Swedes only have some foolish anniversaries and such folly. As the former Danish minister for integration, Karen Jespersen, commented: "Cultural self-denial hardly gets any more disgusting or scary"

    During the second half of the 20th century Sweden used to be called "the middle way". This meant something between capitalism and communism, a controlled market economy, a welfare state with social security for all its citizens. It also stood for certain values, like democracy, peace and solidarity. Now there is no more of that. All of its neighbours are in a better position than Sweden. They have stronger economies, a higher standard of living, better social security and less crime. This includes Finland, a country that was devastated by war. Sweden today is still remarkable - though in quite a different way. Today Sweden might rather be called "the extreme way". In both Scandinavian neighbouring countries there are big opposition parties, but none in Sweden. How come? Norway has Fremskrittspartiet, headed by Carl I Hagen. Denmark has Dansk Folkeparti, headed by Pia Kjersgaard. Both have quite a few seats in their respective Parliament. In the Swedish Parliament there is no such party. Still Sweden has had, all through the 90's, roughly twice as much immigration - even per capita - as Norway or Denmark. Consequently problems connected with this immigration have shown up in Sweden to no less an extent than in Denmark and Norway. Today, out of a population of 9 million people, about 1 million are born outside Sweden. This constitutes 11% of the population. If we also include their children born in Sweden, the figure rises to nearly 20%. This goes for the country as a whole. As the immigrants tend to concentrate in some areas, like Stockholm and Malmö, the percentage in those areas is considerably higher. Added to this is the fact that fertility is high among new immigrants. The effect of all this is that in some schools and in many classes native Swedes are in a minority. There are even cases where almost all the children have foreign background. Swedes are now in many ways treated as second-class citizens in their own country. The very word "Swede" has been given a negative connotation. This kind of project has now been introduced all over Western Europe. Sweden is still a special case. In no other country has it gone that far. One factor may be Swedish mentality, connected with a long period of peace and welfare. This has bred an urge to be good and at the same time a notion of being able to achieve anything. Part of the Swedish mentality is also an unwillingness for conflicts, we rather step aside.

    An important part of the explanation is the role of mass media in Sweden. Not a single TV-program, radio program or big newspaper would give space to critics of the multicultural project. "Sverigedemokraterna" - a party outside the Parliament - can seldom hold meetings without being hassled by political hooligans, who make noise, destroy equipment or even resort to violence. There are no reactions to this in mass media, nor from the police. As Helle "Hamas" Klein, political editor of Sweden's largest newspaper Aftonbladet, boasts: "If the debate is going to be about whether there are problems with immigrants, we don't want it". Welcome to Sweden, the country where the media doesn’t even pretend to champion freedom of speech, but openly brags about censorship. At the same time, leading media figures could even voice sympathy for the terrorists who slaughtered at least 150 innocent children in Beslan. Hans Bergström, former editor-in-chief of Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter, worries that Sweden has become "a one-party state". An examination of the selection of books bought to Swedish libraries showed that literature with a leftist perspective outnumbered books with a conservative or right-wing perspective four to one. The Nyköping branch of the Swedish National Labour Market Administration, the catchy English designation for the dreaded job centre, decided it would get its job-seekers out of the house for a while. Using an old trick beloved of authoritarian states such as Cuba, the Administration told unemployed construction workers that if they did not attend a demonstration in favour of collective agreements, it would assume they were in gainful employment and their benefits would be duly withdrawn. "Attendance at the meeting is compulsory. If you do not attend, I will take it for granted that you are fully occupied and no longer seeking employment through the Labour Market Administration. You will be removed from the unemployment register and your unemployment benefits will cease."

    How does the Swedish political elite respond to their largest cities breaking down? By pretending there is no problem. The media elite shares the same contempt for and fear of the common people, and has largely played along. Some Swedes have compared Swedish media to Pravda in the old Soviet Union. Cracks are beginning to emerge, though. This article in the newspaper Expressen about Prime Minister Göran Persson's visit to Malmö during May Day is brimming with sarcasm, presenting him as a modern Swedish version of clueless Marie Antoinette:

    Swedish Prime Minister Göran Persson, surrounded by a dozen body guards, took part in the May Day demonstrations in the city of Malmö. "It is a splendid celebration, a manifestation of freedom and security", Persson says. Meanwhile, a couple of blocks from there, a handicapped man is beaten to the ground by a group of thugs. The victim was about to demonstrate under the slogan "Welfare is most important". Now he is kicked in the face and the chest. When two of the assailants are finally taken into police custody, the man is terrified and suffering from severe pains. "This is one of Sweden's finest meeting places," says the Prime Minister as he enters the platform after listening to Socialist anthem The Internationale. "In a Malmö I love. Sweden's face to the world." Persson doesn't notice that the police are taking action against a neo-Nazi counterdemonstration nearby. "Open to the winds of the world lies my fair country," says Persson. "There is no greater freedom than security. A society with clean air, clean water and safe people, open to the world.". It's 3.3o pm and a police patrol is cutting down a doll resembling a politician being hanged, carrying a photo of Malmö's Mayor Ilmar Reepalu. The Prime Minister has just promised improved dental care for young people, and concludes: "Look up! The fabulous fact is that the sun is breaking through." The police and the fire department get an alarm. The Örtagård school in Rosengård, an area of Malmö with close to 100 % Muslim immigrants, is burning yet again. Several police patrols are called out. But Prime Minister Persson has already been escorted by special security police into his bulletproof Volvo, on his way back to the Cabinet's private jet and out of Malmö.

    Rumor has it that Socialist PM Göran Persson is pondering a premature exit, at a time when his Social Democratic party is struggling on the opinion polls ahead of the national elections in 2006. Likely successor and thus potential PM may be senior member of Cabinet Mona Sahlin. She is known for gems of wisdom like this one: "A concerted effort that aims at educating Swedes that immigrants are a blessing to their country must be pursued, said Sahlin, stressing that her compatriots must accept that the new Sweden is multi-cultural, and that discrimination must end. "Like it or not, this is the new Sweden".

    Only a couple of generations ago, Sweden was talked about with respect, and the "Swedish model" referred to as an example to follow by other countries. Some of this may have been an illusion. A significant number of the problems we are witnessing now have their roots in the ideology of the all-encompassing state, the generous welfare system and the long period of Socialist dominance that has crippled a genuine political debate. Education teaches people to respect the consensus, and not sabotage it. As Roland Huntford demonstrated in the book The New Totalitarians, Sweden is a "peaceful utopia" totally controlled by a bureaucracy which actively discourages all signs of individuality and dissent. Sweden hasn't been involved in war since Napoleonic times. It managed to stay out of both world wars, was neutral during the cold war and has never experienced invasion or occupation in modern history. In short, there are few if any Western nations less suited intellectually to deal with the Islamic challenge than Sweden. It shows.

    Sweden is already a banana republic, perhaps on its way to becoming an Islamic republic. Swedish culture is disappearing with astonishing speed in front of our eyes. If the trend isn't stopped, the Swedish nation will simply cease to exist in any meaningful way during the first half of this century. The country that gave us Bergman, ABBA and Volvo could become known as the Bosnia of northern Europe. The "Swedish model" will no longer refer to a stable and peaceful state with an advanced economy, but an Eurabian horror story of utopian multiculturalism, Socialist mismanagement and runaway immigration. Sweden has national elections in 2006. This will be one of the last opportunities the country has to resolve its towering internal tensions in peaceful and civilized ways. Some fear it's already too late.

    posted by Fjordman @ 12:37 PM

    fjordman.blogspot.com/200...psing.html
    Last edited by Bill; 24 Mar 06, at 21:26.

  2. #2
    Senior Contributor Asim Aquil's Avatar
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    Mohammad married about 11 times in his lifetime. Most of his marriages were done in order to broker peace or done as a favor to a widow/martyr.

    90% of his wives would be over the age of 17.

    Some women were in their 50s when he married them.

    His first wife was twice Mohammad's age.

    His marriage with Aisha was done to cement his relations with Abu Bakr As-Sadiq who later on became the 1st Khalifa of Islam.

    In the old Arabian customs girls were given off for marriage when they were essentially physically mature. Aisha loved Mohammad, probably the most of all his wives. She is the one from whom we get the most of our Hadiths. She never thought of him as someone who took advantage of him even though she died at an old age. She even fought a war.

    So basically there's nothing awkward considering all these factors about Mohammad's marriage with her. It was also the exception not the norm out of all his marriages.

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    I dont give a damn about his other wives, the fact is he married a 9yo.

    Mohammed was a pedophile.

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    Senior Contributor Asim Aquil's Avatar
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    Look back your own ancestors from that era. Chances are a lot more of yours married 9yr olds, than you think. And that too not for the same reasons as the Prophet did.

    Concept of pedophilia wasn't even there back then. Hehe anyway whatever floats your boat :D

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    Here's the muslim response to claims mohammed married a 9 year old (or whatever)

    Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride?

    The Ancient Myth Exposed

    by T.O. Shanavas

    A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha.

    However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.

    The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.

    In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.

    So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn ‘Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

    EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source

    Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.

    Tehzibu’l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: “He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq” (Tehzi’bu’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50).

    It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: “I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq” (Tehzi’b u’l-tehzi’b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala’ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).

    Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: “When he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly” (Mizanu’l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu’l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).

    CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.

    CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:

    * pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
    * 610 CE: First revelation
    * 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
    * 613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
    * 615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
    * 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
    * 620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet
    * 622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
    * 623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet

    EVIDENCE #2: The Betrothal

    According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with the Prophet at the age of nine years.

    However, in another work, Al-Tabari says: “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives during the pre-Islamic period” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

    If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of seven) and started to live with the Prophet in 624 CE (at the age of nine), that would indicate that she was born in 613 CE and was nine when she began living with the Prophet. Therefore, based on one account of Al-Tabari, the numbers show that Ayesha must have born in 613 CE, three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). Tabari also states that Ayesha was born in the pre-Islamic era (in Jahiliya). If she was born before 610 CE, she would have been at least 14 years old when she began living with the Prophet. Essentially, Tabari contradicts himself.

    CONCLUSION: Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.

    EVIDENCE # 3: The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fatima

    According to Ibn Hajar, “Fatima was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet was 35 years old... she was five years older that Ayesha” (Al-isabah fi tamyizi’l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, p. 377, Maktabatu’l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978).

    If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when the Prophet was 40 years old. If Ayesha was married to the Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’s age at marriage would be 12 years.

    CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other. So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.

    EVIDENCE #4: Ayesha’s Age in relation to Asma’s Age

    According to Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d: “Asma was 10 years older than Ayesha (Siyar A`la’ma’l-nubala’, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu’assasatu’l-risalah, Beirut, 1992).

    According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by 10 years” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933).

    According to Ibn Kathir: “She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives, she died not after five days but 10 or 20, or a few days over 20, or 100 days later. The most well known narrative is that of 100 days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old.” (Al-Bidayah wa’l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

    According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani: “She [Asma] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH.” (Taqribu’l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, p. 654, Arabic, Bab fi’l-nisa’, al-harfu’l-alif, Lucknow).

    According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was 10 years older than Ayesha. If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of the hijrah.

    If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old. Thus, Ayesha, being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with the Prophet between at either 19 to 20 years of age.

    Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda’l-Rahman ibn abi zanna’d, Ayesha’s age at the time she began living with the Prophet would be 19 or 20. In Evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha was 12 years old and in Evidence #4 he contradicts himself with a 17 or 18-year-old Ayesha. What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

    CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.

    EVIDENCE #5: The Battles of Badr and Uhud

    A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in Badr is given in the hadith of Muslim, (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab karahiyati’l-isti`anah fi’l-ghazwi bikafir). Ayesha, while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says: “when we reached Shajarah”. Obviously, Ayesha was with the group travelling towards Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha’s participation in the Battle of Uhud is given in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-jihad wa’l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi’l-nisa’ wa qitalihinna ma`a’lrijal): “Anas reports that on the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet. [On that day,] I saw Ayesha and Umm-i-Sulaim, they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement].” Again, this indicates that Ayesha was present in the Battles of Uhud and Badr.

    It is narrated in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi, Bab Ghazwati’l-khandaq wa hiya’l-ahza’b): “Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation.”

    Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the Battle of Uhud, and (b) Ayesha participated in the Battles of Badr and Uhud

    CONCLUSION: Ayesha’s participation in the Battles of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine years old but at least 15 years old. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction regarding Ayesha’s age.

    EVIDENCE #6: Surat al-Qamar (The Moon)

    According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha was born about eight years before hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah in Arabic)” when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu’l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa’l-sa`atu adha’ wa amarr).

    Chapter 54 of the Quran was revealed eight years before hijrah (The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985), indicating that it was revealed in 614 CE. If Ayesha started living with the Prophet at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (sibyah in Arabic) at the time that Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) was revealed. According to the above tradition, Ayesha was actually a young girl, not an infant in the year of revelation of Al-Qamar. Jariyah means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years old at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and therefore must have been 14-21 years at the time she married the Prophet.

    CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.

    EVIDENCE #7: Arabic Terminology

    According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in mind. Khaulah said: “You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)”. When the Prophet asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah mentioned Ayesha’s name.

    All those who know the Arabic language are aware that the word bikr in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier, is jariyah. Bikr on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word “virgin” in English. Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a “lady” (bikr) (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).

    CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, bikr (virgin), in the above hadith is “adult woman with no sexual experience prior to marriage.” Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.

    EVIDENCE #8. The Qur’anic Text

    All Muslims agree that the Quran is the book of guidance. So, we need to seek the guidance from the Quran to clear the smoke and confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of Ayesha’s age at her marriage. Does the Quran allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?

    There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. There is a verse, however, that guides Muslims in their duty to raise an orphaned child. The Quran’s guidance on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children. The verse states: “And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property...” (Quran, 4:5-6).

    In the matter of children who have lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, (c) educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.

    Here the Quranic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

    In light of the above verses, no responsible Muslim would hand over financial management to a seven- or nine-year-old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage. Ibn Hambal (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p. 33 and 99) claims that nine-year-old Ayesha was rather more interested in playing with toy-horses than taking up the responsible task of a wife. It is difficult to believe, therefore, that AbuBakr, a great believer among Muslims, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to the 50-year-old Prophet. Equally difficult to imagine is that the Prophet would marry an immature seven-year-old girl.

    Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is to educate them. Let us ask the question, “How many of us believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?” The answer is none. Logically, it is an impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven. Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage?

    AbuBakr was a more judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Quran. He would not have married her to anyone. If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to the Prophet, he would have rejected it outright because neither the Prophet nor AbuBakr would violate any clause in the Quran.

    CONCLUSION: The marriage of Ayesha at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Quran. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

    EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

    A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.

    By any stretch of the imagination, the permission given by an immature seven-year-old girl cannot be valid authorization for marriage.

    It is inconceivable that AbuBakr, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a 50-year-old man.

    Similarly, the Prophet would not have accepted the permission given by a girl who, according to the hadith of Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet.

    CONCLUSION: The Prophet did not marry a seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of the valid permission clause of the Islamic Marriage Decree. Therefore, the Prophet married an intellectually and physically mature lady Ayesha.

    SUMMARY:

    It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

    Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine-year-old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `Urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other reported narratives. Moreover, there is absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `Urwah as true when other scholars, including Malik ibn Anas, view his narrative while in Iraq, as unreliable. The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha’s age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha’s age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam.

    Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.

    T.O. Shanavas is a physician based in Michigan. This article first appeared in The Minaret in March 1999.

    © 2001 Minaret

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asim Aquil
    Look back your own ancestors from that era. Chances are a lot more of yours married 9yr olds, than you think. And that too not for the same reasons as the Prophet did.

    Concept of pedophilia wasn't even there back then. Hehe anyway whatever floats your boat :D
    Then they were pedophiles too.

    You dont hear me defending THEM do you?
    Last edited by Bill; 25 Mar 06, at 02:14.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aryan
    Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha’s age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the Quran rejects the marriage of immature girls and boys as well as entrusting them with responsibilities.
    Fortunately for muslim men the world over banging little boys in the asss is still OK though.

  8. #8
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Asim on this one though.

    We shouldn't judge what people in the past did with our current moral standards. We shouldn't celebrate them either. What was done was done in the correct context of the time.

    Many royalties/tribes intermarry with arranged marriages to cement relationships and to prevent war. It was like this in Europe, Asia, and Arab world. I bet the natives of the American continents did that as well.

    However, the reaction of the radical muslims are out of line. He insults your prophet. You sue him. Making death threats just affirms the world what bloodthirsty barbarians these muslims are.

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    Senior Contributor Asim Aquil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    Then they were peophiles too.

    You dont hear me defending THEM do you?
    Right, there is nothing to defend. It's still pretty much noble what he did, given the circumstances. Plus as I said he did not have a tendency to marry or have sex with young girls. It was an exception to the norm.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut
    We shouldn't judge what people in the past did with our current moral standards. We shouldn't celebrate them either. What was done was done in the correct context of the time.
    Ah, so then we shouldnt condemn hitler, stalin, or mao then?

    Likewise Tojo, the Kaiser, Napoleon, and Ghengis Kahn are now beyond analytical reproach?

    C'mon dude, that's nonsense.

    Evil is evil, i dont care how long ago it was.

  11. #11
    Senior Contributor Asim Aquil's Avatar
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    Why do we have concepts of pedophilia today?

    Pedophilia in essence suggests rape of a minor against his/her wishes (since it is assumed they are not allowed to make that decision at that age, even if they consent).

    Now you think it would've mattered if Aisha was 9 or 19? Thats how women were married off. Thats the system of arranged marriages.

    However it is seen from future course of events that Aisha became a staunch Muslim even after the death of the Prophet. Not only that she's the biggest source of Islamic practices known to the Muslims after the Prophet. Her hand in marriage was given to Mohammad by her father. The same would've happened even if she was 19, not 9.

    So 1) The Prophet never forced his way. If anything he might've felt pressured, for the need to cement the relationship.
    2) Aisha was not resentful of her marriage. Infact she was more Muslim than any of the other wives.

    1400 year old act might fit the definition of pedophilia a millenium and a half after it was done. But it evil is usually done with the intent to commit evil. So it surely doesn't fit the definition of evil.

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    A pedophile is someone that bangs little kids. Ie, a sexual degenerate.

    Like Mohammed, for example.

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    Its funny how all these anti muslims suddenly start believing in the hadith because some obscure section of it mentions ayesha to be 9.

    Religion is a whole load of make belief anyway.

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    Banned Defense Professional Bluesman's Avatar
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    Tryin' to draw the 'apostate' fatwa, my friend?

    Don't worry, if the fanatics would kill you for THAT, then they would be trying to kill us all, anyway.

    We'll fight 'em together, back-to-back, with a ring of slain at our feet until the cartridges run out...then we'll draw our knives and ATTACK!

  15. #15
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    Ah, so then we shouldnt condemn hitler, stalin, or mao then?

    Likewise Tojo, the Kaiser, Napoleon, and Ghengis Kahn are now beyond analytical reproach?

    C'mon dude, that's nonsense.

    Evil is evil, i dont care how long ago it was.
    Genocide is wrong. To kill for the sole purpose of killing is wrong. They were all wrong.

    But there's a difference between genocide, pedophile, and arranged marriage between 2 powerful families/tribes to improve relations or to prevent warfare.

    If Mohammad had a history of raping young girls and nothing but young girls, we should condemn him. Rape was not in the proper context of any time frame. But arranged political marriages were back then, across many cultures. And probably still is in many parts of the world today. They don't do it because they like to rape young girls. They do it first and foremost for political reasons.

    Arranged marriages are not on the same level as genocide.

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