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M1A2 vs Challenger 2 (intelligent debate)

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  • Originally posted by R Thomas View Post
    Sorry not 2 50.cals, its 1 thats me getting carried away with the typing :redface
    Do you mean 2 .50 calss and ONE 7.62mm???

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    • Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
      Do you mean 2 .50 calss and ONE 7.62mm???
      Yes i got a little because with TUSK it has 2 50.cals but with out TUSK it has 1 50 cal and 2 7.62 mm

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      • Originally posted by R Thomas View Post
        Yes i got a little because with TUSK it has 2 50.cals but with out TUSK it has 1 50 cal and 2 7.62 mm
        Gotcha. Without TUSK, where is the second 7.62 mounted...the one that is NOT coaxial?

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        • 1 pintle-mounted, 1 coaxial

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          • Originally posted by JA Boomer View Post
            Gotcha. Without TUSK, where is the second 7.62 mounted...the one that is NOT coaxial?
            Pintle-mounted on the loader's hatch. Look at the pics, where you see the transparent gun shield.
            HD Ready?

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            • The best tank in the world, and will EVER be the Leo2...because it can spin its turret so fast that it can fly like a helicopter :-D

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              • Originally posted by Kratos View Post
                The best tank in the world, and will EVER be the Leo2...because it can spin its turret so fast that it can fly like a helicopter :-D
                "intelligent debate" Nice how you back up the Leo2's dominance by saying it can Fly If thats the best you can contribute to this intelligent debate I suggest you use one of your over eager typing hands to press ALT and use the other to press F4, Or may be show us some facts?

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                • calm down my friend
                  just kiddin' you know
                  had enough of who's best debates

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                  • Originally posted by Kratos View Post
                    calm down my friend
                    just kiddin' you know
                    had enough of who's best debates
                    I'm glad to hear it. The lower airspace over Germany is quite busy enough without Leo's!:))
                    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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                    • Ok good stuff ;)

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                      • Historical David,

                        In the pictures that you posted the M1A1 tanks that had received the TUSK upgrade had 2 .50cal machine guns. I had expected to see a remote weapons system of some sort instead. Im pretty sure that I have seen a pic somewhere of a M1A2 SEP at Ft. Bliss that had a remote weapons system on it. Does anyone out there know if that particular part of the upgrade is for M1A1 only?

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                        • The RWS was nixed for now. It was originally outfitted on a few tanks, a company's worth I believe, then canceled. But were working on another one now that will eventually be on both a1 and a2

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                          • Originally posted by HKDan View Post
                            Historical David,

                            In the pictures that you posted the M1A1 tanks that had received the TUSK upgrade had 2 .50cal machine guns. I had expected to see a remote weapons system of some sort instead. Im pretty sure that I have seen a pic somewhere of a M1A2 SEP at Ft. Bliss that had a remote weapons system on it. Does anyone out there know if that particular part of the upgrade is for M1A1 only?
                            The M2 .50 caliber MG on the TCs cupola can be fired from within the tank by the TC. The if you look at the photo of the tank with the turret over the left side you can see a black cable. That is part of the firing system. The cupola can be turned and controlled from within the turret or while standing behind the gun. The TCs M240 is on a pintle mount (side note: When I commanded a Bradley company I always wanted to have one of those on my Bradley!) The .50 cal on the main gun is controlled from the gunners station.

                            As for which is better?

                            I only have personal knowledge of the M1....and as tanks go I think it is second to none. The attached tank platoons I had in my rifle comapny were awesome weapons. However from everything which I have read it is a matter of degrees...armor better in one, stab system better in the other, etc, etc. Chally, M1 and Leo 2 all sit together on the top of the pyramid. T-90 and Leclerc just right behind.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • I have served for 20 years on various incarnations of the Abrams tank. I have 8 years experience on M1A2/SEP platforms. Most recently I was assigned as an exchange instructor to the British Army and taught for three years on Challenger 2. This is in no way an expert opinion, but just some of my observations

                              1. Thermal: edge Abrams.
                              The FLIR used in the A2/SEP is head and shoulders above TIS systems. The location of the TISH head on CR2 creates some issues causing longer engagement times.

                              2. Drive Train/Hull: Draw
                              While the Abrams gas turbine gobbles fuel and the CR2 sips by comparison, the noise and smoke signatures from the diesel are detractors. I do like the HTT automated track tension system on CR2.

                              3. Sustained Rate of Fire: edge Abrams
                              Though CR2 currently has a smooth bore program in development, the three piece ammuntion system slows down the sustained rate of fire.

                              4. Crew Ammenities: edge CR2
                              I tried to "nick" a couple of BVs and a commander's seat before leaving the UK. I also like the fact the the gunner's hand controls also allow him to change day/TI and magnification.

                              5. Small Arms/Close in Weapon Systems: edge Abrams
                              I just could not muster any love for the chain gun. I found it reliable on ranges, I am just skeptical. Crews that I taught had issues with it. With the .50 cal M2HB and 2 M240 (L7) machine guns, I have to give the edge to Abrams here.

                              6. Stowage: edge CR2
                              The Challenger has a place for everything and a clean appearance even when fully kitted out. Do the same with an Abrams and it looks like the local roundabout when warm weather arrives. (minus the bird feeders and planters.)

                              Over all both are formidable tanks. It amazes me how similar the urban upgrade kits are for both tanks. I haven't had experience with the Selex OWS yet.
                              Tanks, Fender Strats and Texas BBQ!

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                              • 1st of all, welcome, my good man.

                                2nd, is there a serviceman from Texas who is not in the Calvary?

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