FACE/OFF : “Topgun” USN F-14 vs. USAF F-15

[leib10]

The F-14's will still have Sidewinders. So the F-14's will have to close to WVR to have a chance.

[Bill]

To reach Mach 5 would require exhausting all of its fuel thus leaving no fuel left for manuevering. Basically it is a dumb missile going in one direction. Even at 100 miles, you will have plenty of warning time since going at mach 5 would light up every IR sensor and radar.

And when the F-14D punch in its burners, well it better hope that it has an aerial refueling plane nearby because it will exhaust its entire fuel supply in seconds, not minutes.

Besides Phoenixes cost over 2 million dollars apeiece and there's nothing worse than wasting 100 million dollars if you didn't hit a target because it was easy to evade the missiles.

Ok Let just say that F-14s fire all the missiles at F-15s and the F-15s beat their way out. Now what? F-14s just waste a lot of missiles and still there are F-15s out there waiting for the F-14s to egress so they can take over the airspace. Result? F-15s rule the sky.

It is all about air control and superiority. F-14s do not have the stamina of F-15s.

BY the way when you said it will be 12 v. 4 after F-14s fire all their missiles, guess what? Those 4 still have those missiles and will beat the crap out of the F-14s who don't have missiles or ammo.

LOL, so much cluelessness in one post, where to begin?

I guess we'll start at the top:

To reach Mach 5 would require exhausting all of its fuel thus leaving no fuel left for manuevering.

Almost all BVR intercepts are accomplished AFTER the missile has extinguished it's fuel supply. That's SAMs and AAMs btw. The Phoenix EXCEEDS mach 5 in it's terminal attack dive.

Basically it is a dumb missile going in one direction.

You may have noticed the various control surfaces on the AIM-54 and other missiles. They steer the missile. The Phoenix C can manuever at a sustained 19gs. That is more than 2x the maximum sustained G rate of the F-15C.

Even at 100 miles, you will have plenty of warning time since going at mach 5 would light up every IR sensor and radar.

The warhead of the Phoenix goes active 20,000 yards from the target. That equates to approx 9 seconds of warning time under typical conditions. A Phoenix will not show up on IRST or FLIR unless the enemy aircraft is pointed up at a very steep AoA. Phoenix dives down in a steep 60 degree angle from 100,000+ feet(this is what gives it so much energy to manuever for it's terminal intercept despite it's motor being burned out).


[QUOTE=Blademaster] And when the F-14D punch in its burners, well it better hope that it has an aerial refueling plane nearby because it will exhaust its entire fuel supply in seconds, not minutes.

Yep, and a pursuing F-15C that was still packing a full load of AAMs would burn it's fuel supply even faster. It would have to make up about 70 miles on the Tom D to engage with an AMRAAM.

Aint happening. The Ronin would be bingo fuel long before it got off a single shot.

Besides Phoenixes cost over 2 million dollars apeiece

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT.

The AIM-54C cost less than 1/2 that amount($945,000 USD)

and there's nothing worse than wasting 100 million dollars if you didn't hit a target because it was easy to evade the missiles.

If 12 Toms salvoed 4 Phoenixes apiece it could cost 45 million. So IOW, if they shot down just two Eagles, they will have more than paid for themselves.

Ok Let just say that F-14s fire all the missiles at F-15s and the F-15s beat their way out. Now what? F-14s just waste a lot of missiles and still there are F-15s out there waiting for the F-14s to egress so they can take over the airspace. Result? F-15s rule the sky.

You still have not stated how these Eagles are going to evade the Phoenixes.
All you've said is the Eagles will 'beat them'.

Beaming- the singlular most effective tactic for evading incoming missiles- requires that the pilot have eyes on the target.
Except that you can't see a Phoenix at 3000+ MPH as it arcs down in a 60 degree dive with an extinguished motor with the naked eye. So that kinda rules out beaming doesnt it?
On top if it, you must ensure the Phoenix never closes to within 100 meters at the merge point.......or you're dead.

I am willing to concede that USAF Eagles would be very succesful at evading phoenixes, but IMO thinking they'll evade anything more than 80% of them is the most wishful of all thinking. Even the totally inferior early Sparrow models managed a 27% actual combat kill record.

I am quite confident that Phoenix could easily match that % against fighter aircraft with a decent sized sample group of actual combat engagements.

And BTW, chasing after the Toms would extinguish the entire fuel supply of the Eagles, so no, you would not have control of the Skies.

Also, a Tomcat can embark Six Phoenixes and 2 Sidewinders, or Four Phoenixes, 2 Sparrows(or AMRAAMS with a simple software upgrade that was never installed) and 2 AIM-9s.

So whereever you got this idea that the Toms would be out of missiles after salvoing their Phoenixes, i do not know.

A Tomcat can also carry a "Dogfight" AAM mix of Sparrows(or again, AMRAAMs with a software update) and Sidewinders, though im not sure how many of each.

[Blademaster]

OK fine,

Another of Sniper's senseless posts, ie, beating the brain with nothing inside.

You say that the Phoenix go in an arc? OK Now tell me what happens when the phoenix is lower than you? You beat the missile ok? If I see the phoenix flying up in the air I know that it is gonna go into a terminal attack dive which means that even with 19gs, It can only go in one direction: DOWN. I can go up and above the plane (geometrically speaking) where the missile is.

As for SAM and AAMs having terminal attack mode? What the hell you smoking? You must be smoking some good hippie mush. Those missiles only go up to a point where gravity starts to beat them. AFter that they are useless duds hence they have a self destruction mode when they reach that point because you (especially when you are a ground pounder) don't want a missile coming at you at a very high rate of speed.

Yeah missile have steering fins but they don't have enough lift to generate change over in velocity (hence direction) thus they will only go into one direction. Yeah they can arc but only arc and not even 19gs will help them go up after their fuel is exhausted.

As for the warhead exploding 20,000 yards away, I am sorry even a fragile glider will only feel bumps especially in the rarefied air where most air combat takes place around 15,000 to 25,000 ft. It is very hard to generate a blast wave in that rarefied air.

Let's say My plane is flying away from the missile at 1.8 mach going up which is around 1300mph which is .36 mile per second. The missile is 100 miles away going at Mach 5 which is around 3600 mph which is one mile per second. Therefore it takes 100 seconds to reach me but I am going away from the missile which increases the time it takes to reach me. At 100 second, I am already 36 mile away (unlikely since I would run out of gas using afterburner for that long so for sake of realistic scenario, I would go around 20 miles or so). That gives me way more than enough space between the explosion and my plane.

Let's allow more conservative numbers. Let's say the F-14Ds fire the missiles at 60 miles away instead of 100 miles away. Now it takes 60 seconds for the missile to reach me. That's way more than enough time for warning and for me to evade the missile. At 40 second of flight time, the missile has already exhausted its fuel and is now in terminal dive or in an arc as you like to put it. The gravity has already won over the missile meaning it can only go into one direction: Down. Yeah it can change direction like north, south, east, or west, but still in the direction down. That gives me 20 seconds which is way more than enough time for my plane to go up and beat the envelope of the missile.

As for the radar not detecting the phoenixs. Simple. My AWACs can detect the missiles and warn me. Even with my beaming radar at 60 degrees, at 60 miles away due to the coverage of the beaming at 60 degrees, the radar can detect the phoenixes going up into its terminal dive, which at this point, the F-15 pilot who studies the flight profile of the Phoenix will know how the missile is going to perform and take evasive action.

Bottomline, Phoenex is still a dumb missile. Which is why SAMs by itself is no deterrent to air attack as you often so stated before.

Therefore, 40 miles is the maximum optimum distance because it gives you enough distance between the enemy and you yet doesn't really give the enemy enough time to react. Only there you will see ratio kills of 16 % to 20%. As the distance closes, your probability of a kill goes up. But your figures of 16% to 20% is way too optimistic and farfetched into Star trek dreamland.

[Bill]

OK fine,

Another of Sniper's senseless posts, ie, beating the brain with nothing inside.

I assume that was some kind of insult? I must say, it doesn't make much sense to me. You may wish to clarify so that i can be properly insulted(if that was your intent).

You say that the Phoenix go in an arc?

Yes, Phoenix attacks in a ballitstic arc. Immediately after launch it climbs to 100,000+ feet where it cruises in the thin atmosphere, and then it tips over into a steep energy preserving dive, activates it's terminal homer when it is 20,000 yards out, and attacks the target.

OK Now tell me what happens when the phoenix is lower than you?

The only time a Phoneix attacking in a ballistic LR profile will be lower than you is after it's already missed, or after it has blown a hole through your aircraft. An F-15 cannot achieve 100,000 feet under any circumstances, so in a LR engagement the Phoenix will ALWAYS have the altitude advantadge.

If I see the phoenix flying up in the air I know that it is gonna go into a terminal attack dive which means that even with 19gs, It can only go in one direction: DOWN. I can go up and above the plane (geometrically speaking) where the missile is.

You can't see the Phoenix. It's almost 1000mph FASTER than a high powered RIFLE BULLET, and you will be presented with it's smallest aspect(the nose).

As for SAM and AAMs having terminal attack mode? What the hell you smoking? You must be smoking some good hippie mush. Those missiles only go up to a point where gravity starts to beat them. AFter that they are useless duds hence they have a self destruction mode when they reach that point because you (especially when you are a ground pounder) don't want a missile coming at you at a very high rate of speed.

What in the name of god was that rant all about?

Yeah missile have steering fins but they don't have enough lift to generate change over in velocity (hence direction) thus they will only go into one direction. Yeah they can arc but only arc and not even 19gs will help them go up after their fuel is exhausted.

Why would i want my missile to go up when the target is below me?(a Phoenix would be attacking DOWN from 100,000+ feet to a target most likely to be at no more than 30k feet).

As for the warhead exploding 20,000 yards away, I am sorry even a fragile glider will only feel bumps especially in the rarefied air where most air combat takes place around 15,000 to 25,000 ft. It is very hard to generate a blast wave in that rarefied air.

The seeker activates- ie goes into active search- at 20,000 yards. You misunderstood.

The warhead's effective radius is classified, but is probably in excess of 100 meters. It is activated by a laser proximity fuze or direct contact.

Let's say My plane is flying away from the missile at 1.8 mach going up which is around 1300mph which is .36 mile per second. The missile is 100 miles away going at Mach 5 which is around 3600 mph which is one mile per second. Therefore it takes 100 seconds to reach me but I am going away from the missile which increases the time it takes to reach me. At 100 second, I am already 36 mile away (unlikely since I would run out of gas using afterburner for that long so for sake of realistic scenario, I would go around 20 miles or so). That gives me way more than enough space between the explosion and my plane.

Your numbers are off, but that's not important because you give an EXCELLENT display of why the F-14D holds such a massive advantadgte.

The Phoenixes are fired and you have your F-15s turning and running at max burner to get out of the WEZ of the Phoenixes. A great plan, except that you have just burnt the vast majority of your fuel and my planes are still over 100 miles away(because i did not wildly give chase as you turned and ran, but continuted cruising at you at an efficient subsonic speed).
So now however many of your planes survived are all bingo, all have to retire for fuel, and the airspace belongs to my 12 TOMCATS, and more importantly, my strike aircraft can now attack your forces unmolested.


That's even if i dont hit a SINGLE F-15. Even if every missile misses, i have just gained absolute local air supremacy, and you are in for a world of incoming hurt delivered by my follow on strike fighters. Best part is because i didnt waste all my fuel, and because my Toms still have 4 missiles a piece, i can fly a CAP and make sure my strike planes all get out without fighter interference too.

Phoenix is the second most advanced AAM ever fielded by the US military with performance that absolutely shames any other AAM in the world(and damned near every missile ever made for any purpose), it boggles my mind that people dismiss it.

[Blademaster]

THen why the hell is the Navy retiring the Phoenix?

Answer me that and don't give me the usual crap of oh how the Navy wants to save money or something like that especially when you gave your answer as how having a hit rate of 16% actually gets your money back.

Tell me why the Navy did not outfit Phoenix to other planes and why the Air Force did not outfit it to any of its planes. Why were there no continuing evolution of the Phoenix?

[Bill]

Tell me why the navy cancelled DD21 just to basically ressurect it with the DD-X.

Tell me why the navy lied and said the F-18E/F was an 'upgraded' hornet when it was in fact an all new aircraft that just happened to look a lot like a hornet.

Tell me why the navy developed SM-4 LASM to the point of production at great expense and then just cancelled it.

Tell me why the USN isnt interested in POLAR when it would adress most NSFS needs and shut most of it's critics up.

Tell me why the USN converts four old missile boats to cruise missile carriers when we regularly put our ships to sea with under half their VLS tubes full, when nearly every ship in the surface and sub fleet already possesses a robust TLAM capability, and when we could not even fill 85% of the VLS tubes in the entire fleet even with our entire arsenal of VLS launched weapons of all types if we wanted to.

Tell me why the USN regularly sends it's carriers to sea with a 60% strength airwing compared to the 90TACAIR wings of the cold war.

Tell me why the USN wants to reduce it's fleet of carriers by two.

It's always about money.

[Blademaster]

I assume that was some kind of insult? I must say, it doesn't make much sense to me. You may wish to clarify so that i can be properly insulted(if that was your intent).

if you can't understand it, then it ain't my problem.

Yes, Phoenix attacks in a ballitstic arc. Immediately after launch it climbs to 100,000+ feet where it cruises in the thin atmosphere, and then it tips over into a steep energy preserving dive, activates it's terminal homer when it is 20,000 yards out, and attacks the target.

Basically you are telling me that it goes into a dive not knowing where the target is? Tell me what happens when my plane is more than 20,000 yds away from the missile and yet the missile goes by me. Does the phoenix have a radar? Is it a fire and forget missile or the F-14s have to keep the targets painted? If so that means the F-14s have to fly toward the targets.

Let's say I am within 20,000 yds. The missile homes onto me. Tell me the specs of the envelope of the missile and I will see whether I can evade it while going after the F-14s.

By the way, ever heard of jamming and decoys? By the way, F-15E electronic suite are way more superior to the F-14D Super Tomcats.

You can't see the Phoenix. It's almost 1000mph FASTER than a high powered RIFLE BULLET, and you will be presented with it's smallest aspect(the nose).

No but you can see the plume as it goes up and then your computer after being loaded the missile's flight profile and specs will help you calculate in what direction it is coming at you and what kind of envelope the missile will have. Then all you have to do is get out of the envelope.

What in the name of god was that rant all about?

Then what in the name of god is your dreaming fantasyland ala post about?

The warhead's effective radius is classified, but is probably in excess of 100 meters. It is activated by a laser proximity fuze or direct contact.

Ok then all I need to do is get more than 100 meters away from it which is not that hard to do.

Your numbers are off, but that's not important because you give an EXCELLENT display of why the F-14D holds such a massive advantadgte.

The Phoenixes are fired and you have your F-15s turning and running at max burner to get out of the WEZ of the Phoenixes. A great plan, except that you have just burnt the vast majority of your fuel and my planes are still over 100 miles away(because i did not wildly give chase as you turned and ran, but continuted cruising at you at an efficient subsonic speed).
So now however many of your planes survived are all bingo, all have to retire for fuel, and the airspace belongs to my 12 TOMCATS, and more importantly, my strike aircraft can now attack your forces unmolested.


That's even if i dont hit a SINGLE F-15. Even if every missile misses, i have just gained absolute local air supremacy, and you are in for a world of incoming hurt delivered by my follow on strike fighters. Best part is because i didnt waste all my fuel, and because my Toms still have 4 missiles a piece, i can fly a CAP and make sure my strike planes all get out without fighter interference too.

Fine, I wont run, But still there are ways to defeat the Phoenix missiles and that's electronic jamming and aggressive evasive manuevers. Sorry but still Phoenix is a gliding missile. The longer the distance is the more reactive time you got and the higher the probability you are going to miss. That's the simple fact of physics.

Got any links to back your claims? I would love to see a post by F-15 pilot judging the merits of the Phoenix against his plane. Only then I would be convinced.

[Bill]

Basically you are telling me that it goes into a dive not knowing where the target is?

It recieves constant midcourse updates from the F14D(and some say from E2Cs, it is a rumored but unconfirmed capability)

Tell me what happens when my plane is more than 20,000 yds away from the missile and yet the missile goes by me. Does the phoenix have a radar? Is it a fire and forget missile or the F-14s have to keep the targets painted? If so that means the F-14s have to fly toward the targets.

You are telling me that you don't even know what type of missile Phoenix is but yet you are also telling me that it sucks.

Since it seems you dont know i will do my best to explain it to you as i understand it.(i have posted ALL of this here in great detail in the past btw)

Phoenix is an ACTIVE RADAR HOMING MISSILE with several engagement modes including SARH, updated command inertial, and autonomous inertial(among others).

Let's say I am within 20,000 yds. The missile homes onto me. Tell me the specs of the envelope of the missile and I will see whether I can evade it while going after the F-14s.

In LR profiles it will come at it's target in a 60 degree dive at about 3100mph with a maximum turn rate of 19gs and (i assume) a lethal radius of approx. 100 meters.(Phoenix is also capable of a conventional 'tailchase' profile as well). Most importantly, you will not be able to see the missile. The only data you'll get on bearing/rate/distance is from your RWR, so you better hope it's a really friggin good one.

I will tell you that when F-14Ds opened up on two Mig-25s they did not even attempt to counter engage. They simply turned tail and ran their assses off at mach 3 plus as soon as the APG-71s locked onto them.
This was SOP for the Iraqis during ODS ANY time an F-14 lilluminated them.
During ODS the F-14s earned the nickname "Mig Repellant".

By the way, ever heard of jamming and decoys? By the way, F-15E electronic suite are way more superior to the F-14D Super Tomcats.

Actually, they both use the ALQ-131 and chaff/flares. Therefore both aircraft have essentially identical ECM capabilities(same is true for all non AESA US tactical aircraft(only real difference being in the number of chaff/flares carried)
All i know about the ALQ-131(beyond open source stuff) is that the pilots on my site did not speak highly of it when it came up.

No but you can see the plume as it goes up and then your computer after being loaded the missile's flight profile and specs will help you calculate in what direction it is coming at you and what kind of envelope the missile will have. Then all you have to do is get out of the envelope.

You cannot see the plume of a Phoenix(or any missile) when it's launched from 100 miles away, not even with state of the art IRST.

Since you cannot see it launched, and since the AIM-54 does not announce the fact that it's been launched until it is a mere 20,000 yards from impact, you will not know it was launched at all until your RWR goes off telling you the Radar seeker of the Phoenix just went active.

You are entitled to think as you wish, but i feel like i've laid out a pretty clear and compelling argument that the Phoenix has a legitimate real world anti-fighter capability.

I think it's also obvious you have some serious misconceptions wrt ACM and missile evasion techniques.

[leib10]

A Tomcat can also carry a "Dogfight" AAM mix of Sparrows(or again, AMRAAMs with a software update) and Sidewinders, though im not sure how many of each.

Typically, Tomcats carried 4 Sparrows under the fuselage and 4 Sidewinders on the underwing stations.

[Jimmy]

Phoenix stuff.

AMRAAM also uses trajectory shaping (the arc you were talking about)

A 19G sustained maneuver by a missile is easily defeatable. The plane doesnt have to pull a 19G turn to do it. The AMRAAM's G-load is classified, but its considerably higher...an F-14 CAN NOT pull enough Gs to avoid. And F-15 CAN pull enough Gs to avoid the Phoenix...for the record, I'm not sure if the avoidance term includes the kill radius or not.

And IRST is overrated.

Sniper, you bring up a lot of different things that you obviously know a little bit about, but you're not an expert. Different launch modes...not from 100nm. You'll see a cmd inert launch. The midcourse updates mean that the jet has to hold the lock on the target. So the F-15 doesnt have to defeat the missile, he just has to defeat the jet's radar. Completely doable. Once the Eagle breaks lock, the missile's PK drops like a rock because it has to find the target on its own. On top of that the Eagle is probably beaming right out of the Phoenix's flight path, giving rise to a tail chase - a tail chase is bad news for any missile...sure, they can do it, but it takes forever and bleeds off energy.

Edit: The internet tells me the AIM-120 can pull 40+ Gs.

[Garry]

having read this interesting discussion.... I see that some of us here believe that best fighter would be a speedy AWACS aircraft armed with loads of Phoenix AAMs.... very interesting!

Why Poenix was not used on other platforms.... other than one made to fight cruise missiles? It must be a reason other than stupidity!

[Bill]

AMRAAM also uses trajectory shaping (the arc you were talking about)

A 19G sustained maneuver by a missile is easily defeatable. The plane doesnt have to pull a 19G turn to do it. The AMRAAM's G-load is classified, but its considerably higher...an F-14 CAN NOT pull enough Gs to avoid. And F-15 CAN pull enough Gs to avoid the Phoenix...for the record, I'm not sure if the avoidance term includes the kill radius or not.

And IRST is overrated.

Sniper, you bring up a lot of different things that you obviously know a little bit about, but you're not an expert. Different launch modes...not from 100nm. You'll see a cmd inert launch. The midcourse updates mean that the jet has to hold the lock on the target. So the F-15 doesnt have to defeat the missile, he just has to defeat the jet's radar. Completely doable. Once the Eagle breaks lock, the missile's PK drops like a rock because it has to find the target on its own. On top of that the Eagle is probably beaming right out of the Phoenix's flight path, giving rise to a tail chase - a tail chase is bad news for any missile...sure, they can do it, but it takes forever and bleeds off energy.

Edit: The internet tells me the AIM-120 can pull 40+ Gs.

I agree more or less with all that. I have never claimed to be an expert(which is quite natural since i have spent exactly 15 minutes of my life in an F-16C simulator- how could i be? ), i have merely claimed to have accesss to a lot of USAF pilots on my board, and to having paid some attention when they discuss these things. And i'm a smart guy that can look at performance figures and various capabilities and form a rough idea on what ought to work or not.

Anyway, ALL missiles can be evaded, though i would submit NONE of them "easily". The Phoenixes 19gs is not terrific, but it does have the advantadge of closing much faster than a typical missile(causing judgement errors in when to execute turns, etc- Pheonix compresses the entire evasion sequence making every second much more critical), and having a huge warhead(on paper it should have roughly triple the kill radius of AMRAAM).

I agree that an AMRAAM should be much more difficult to evade, but again, AMRAAMs can and have missed in combat(more than once), so you can evade those too.

Phoenix is about 1000mph faster with almost triple the warhead, whereas AMRAAM is about twice as agile.

You tell me which is better. I suspect both are pretty damned scary when they're heading right for you.

I also agree that radars can be jammed. However F-14Ds operating their APG-71s in co-op mode are anything but easy to jam. When operating in their link mode the power of the APG-71 is boosted several times(i think it's 5x, but i could be wrong. It's on the MATS site but i dont feel like looking it up right now. MATS also has an excellent description of all the AWG-71 and AIM-54C modes).
And btw, an APG-63 or 70 is going to be even easier to jam, and like i've stated earlier, the F14D has the same exact ECM package as the Eagle.
The AIM-54C Sealed ECCM was designed to overcome concentrated overlapping jamming by specialized soviet Badger jammers(much more raw power than anything a fighter is going to mount), and the APG-71 has several modes designed to defeat powerful stand-off jamming.(All of that is on MATS too).

At any rate, If the Phoenixes force the enemy to bleed off all his fuel before he can close and return fire with his AMRAAMs(figure 40ish miles) such as was the case with the Iraqi Mig-25s or if i force your Eagles into a tailchase The F14s have won the fight even if i have not hard killed any of them.

As i've said, even if Phoenix achieves a very low kill % it will still be highly effective at attriting enemy fighter flights before they can return fire. As has been pointed out, The Tomcat is not toothless once it's out of AIM-54s. It could still carry two AMRAAMs with a simple software upgrade(plus two AIM9s). A 10% hit rate and it's a 12-4 edge for the Tomcats before the Eagles fire a shot. If the Eagles run, who cares if they all miss? Mission accomplished anyway.

Phoenix is a freebie.

Here's a link to MATS and the Jolly Rogers Sqn site.
http://www.anft.net/f-14/
http://www.jolly-rogers.com/airpower/index.html

They're the two most comprehensive sites i've seen with F-14/Phoenix Data (besides the former F-14 crewchief that posts at my board and here occcasionally- Hawg166)

PS: Yes i know that AMRAAM has a ballistic trajectory mode for LR energy efficient engagements. It has HOJ too.

[Captain Drunk]

Let's say My plane is flying away from the missile at 1.8 mach going up which is around 1300mph which is .36 mile per second. The missile is 100 miles away going at Mach 5 which is around 3600 mph which is one mile per second. Therefore it takes 100 seconds to reach me but I am going away from the missile which increases the time it takes to reach me. At 100 second, I am already 36 mile away (unlikely since I would run out of gas using afterburner for that long so for sake of realistic scenario, I would go around 20 miles or so). That gives me way more than enough space between the explosion and my plane.

This is sheer stupidity biasing a missile that was made as the best deterrent for an uncompromised fighter safeguarding a 5600 crew strong Carrier. Surely enough I don’t suppose Topgun pilots were ever taught that their AIM-54 was a ‘dumb gliding missile’ as you say, that whirls off easily by a mere tilt of the stick of an enemy fighter. An F-15 pilot would need at least 60 miles to shoot the Tomcat with an AIM-7M/F while the F-14 has already launched the Phoenix from possibly the least safe distance of 80 miles or over so in less than a minute, since 3600 mph is one mile a second, no AIM-54s gonna even quiver at any evasive maneuvering or counter-measures. It would take 60 seconds just to decide whether to grab that stick or use the ejector seat.

[Bill]

LOL......OK, maybe Burning Kid is right... ;)

[Captain Drunk]

Fine, I wont run, But still there are ways to defeat the Phoenix missiles and that's electronic jamming and aggressive evasive manuevers. Sorry but still Phoenix is a gliding missile. The longer the distance is the more reactive time you got and the higher the probability you are going to miss. That's the simple fact of physics.

Wrong Physics again. That Phoenix will always hit the F-15 every single time, because the initial speed of the AIM-54 is always greater than the final evasive speed of the F-15. An F-15 would only escape the Phoenix, if the speed of its evasive motion exceeds the speed of the incoming missile, which will never....never......be the case. Mach 5 is just too fast.

One shot, one kill