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Thread: .41 Magnum

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid
    For penetrating dense material I'm guessing it's better to with more mass rather than more velocity. A harpoon performs a similar function to a bullet, just underwater, yet is significantly slower and heavier. Probably also why the Big BLU will be more effective than ICBM penetrators.
    There's a happy medium, and the construction of the penetrator is the overridning determiner of what that medium is. WRT penetrators, if properly constructed, about mach 7(CKEM is mach 6.6/8.1kps/7400fps@SL, whereas M829A3 APFSDSDU sabot about mach 5.5-6) is the absolute limit of what we can currently build-that i am aware of- and have it still stay intatct on impact.
    Last edited by Bill; 20 Aug 06, at 16:40.

  2. #32
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    I like "Mythbusters". They are fun to watch. Especially when they screw things up and their jury rigged experiments prove nothing at all except that they need to call in a couple of experts more often.

    Shooting bullets into a block of gelatin or a dead pig does NOT prove lack of knock down power. They're already dead. What it takes is reflexive action of a living target reacting to a .22 rimfire or a .41 magnum. Tissue damage from my Ruger S.A. would be large enough for the intruder to do more than just say "Owee".

    Want to prove knockdown? Put a quarter-inch thick steel plate, about 6 inches by 6 inches, on a garden scale flat car mounted on a straight track. Then see how far that car moves from impact of various rounds.

    That will give a comparison of how much tissue damage is caused (especially if the bullet hits a bone) and how violently the victim would swing around, bounce back or flip over.

  3. #33
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    Reflexive action is not knockdown power. It is a defense mechanism caused by your subconscious wanting to get out of the way of the the thing you just got shot with! Also, a lot of times people are just in an awkward position when they get hit, so they just fall down.

    Quote Originally Posted by rusty
    Want to prove knockdown? Put a quarter-inch thick steel plate, about 6 inches by 6 inches, on a garden scale flat car mounted on a straight track. Then see how far that car moves from impact of various rounds.
    No, the best way is to shoot yourself in the chest with a bullet proof vest on.

    Which has been done many times by the owner of Second Chance Vests...on video, with several calibers.

    "A lot of people think I'm kind of stupid for doing this"
    ~ Second chance company president Richard Davis (before getting shot at 'point blank range' with a 12 gauge shotgun slug, and no, he does not fall down, or even take a step back)

    Not sure if the video is online, but it's a well known video in shooting circles. I doubt highly i'll be the only one at WAB that's seen it before.
    Last edited by Bill; 21 Aug 06, at 04:36.

  4. #34
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    Reflexive action is not knockdown power. It is a defense mechanism of the thing you just shot to get it out of the line of fire faster. Also, a lot of times people just are in an awkward position when they get hit, so they just fall down.

    No, the best way is to shoot yourself in the chest with a bullet proof vest on.

    Which has been done many times by the owner of Second Chance Vests...on video, with several calibers.

    "A lot of people think I'm kind of stupid for doing this"
    ~ Second chance company president Richard Davis (before getting shot at 'point blank range' with a 12 gauge shotgun slug, and no, he does not fall down, or even take a step back)

    Not sure if the video is online, but it's a well known video in shooting circles. I doubt highly i'll be the only one at WAB that's seen it before.
    Many Moons ago on the old, old TV program "You Asked For It" (with Art Baker as the host), they demonstrated a vest with a Police Officer firing a .45 ACP into the company President's chest with a Thompson M28-A1 from about 12 inches away and it didn't even knock the ashes off of his cigar.

    That's because the vest (nylon only in those days, Aramid fiber or Kevlar was not invented yet), was thick enough with the ballistic weave to distribute impact.

    Even today with the modern plastics ceramics and metal plates, there is still enough shock (depending on the weapon of course) to knock a guy on his butt. Perhaps it is more surprise than actual Kinetic Energy. But the idea is to put the guy down in a more vulnerable position and momentarily incapable of shooting back. Therefore the more reflexive action you will experience such as spinning around, falling down, flipping backwards, etc. It's a natural thing that you cannot get out of a dead pig.

    Just 3 weeks ago I was invited by a company to examine some metal inserts they are designing for personal body armor. They were wondering if Navy type Class A armor would work.

    Well, the rest of the meeting and my comments of course are confidential, but the fact remains; the bigger and faster the slug the more damage you will receive.

    One thing I didn't tell those engineers at the meeting: Though their inserts seem to be the best I have ever seen, I have a small Naval Cannon at home (built the carriage myself) with a 1 1/4" bore. That not only would knock down Bigfoot wearing one of those vests but probably break a rib or two at the same time.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship
    Many Moons ago on the old, old TV program "You Asked For It" (with Art Baker as the host), they demonstrated a vest with a Police Officer firing a .45 ACP into the company President's chest with a Thompson M28-A1 from about 12 inches away and it didn't even knock the ashes off of his cigar.

    That's because the vest (nylon only in those days, Aramid fiber or Kevlar was not invented yet), was thick enough with the ballistic weave to distribute impact.

    Even today with the modern plastics ceramics and metal plates, there is still enough shock (depending on the weapon of course) to knock a guy on his butt. Perhaps it is more surprise than actual Kinetic Energy. But the idea is to put the guy down in a more vulnerable position and momentarily incapable of shooting back. Therefore the more reflexive action you will experience such as spinning around, falling down, flipping backwards, etc. It's a natural thing that you cannot get out of a dead pig.

    Just 3 weeks ago I was invited by a company to examine some metal inserts they are designing for personal body armor. They were wondering if Navy type Class A armor would work.

    Well, the rest of the meeting and my comments of course are confidential, but the fact remains; the bigger and faster the slug the more damage you will receive.

    One thing I didn't tell those engineers at the meeting: Though their inserts seem to be the best I have ever seen, I have a small Naval Cannon at home (built the carriage myself) with a 1 1/4" bore. That not only would knock down Bigfoot wearing one of those vests but probably break a rib or two at the same time.
    It's a matter of kinetic energy, and at a mere 350ish lbs(one of the lowest of any major caliber handgun rounds), the .45ACP just lacks the punch.

    Consider that science just tested a bunch of martial artists, and just an average boxer was able to punch with 1000 ft-lbs of energy. I've been punched by, and seen a lot of men punched, and punched quite a few of my own. I've never seen anyone go flying backwards from it unless they were already totally off balance.

    Physics dictates that spreading the impact over a larger area (by putting on a vest) will transfer more of the energy to the target, so should increase the knockdown effect...vs... having a bullet just punch a hole straight through and go on zipping down range with 'wasted' energy still 'aboard'.

    So IMO when we see someone 'fly back', they're actually either stumbling backwards to begin with or they were off balance in just the right way to cause them to fall backward. I've seen a couple guys get hit by 7.62 NATO from a frontal shot and actually fall forward.(they were both walking at the time)

  6. #36
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    Do we really need the kinetic engery arguement again? No? didn't think so.


    Never fired one but from the stats I've seen the .41 magnum seems servicable. I wonder why I've never seen it in an auto pistol.

    not saying it doesn't exist just that I've never seen one.

  7. #37
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    Desert Eagle is(or was) available in .41 mag.

    As far as KE, some people like the 'cold truth' of hard numbers.

    Me personally, i don't KE is of any real relevance except as an indicator of penetration potential when taken together with projectile construction/configuration/velocity. In truth for APERS duties nothing really matters but shot placement.

    Just like real estate, shooting bad guys is all about location, location, location.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    Reflexive action is not knockdown power. It is a defense mechanism caused by your subconscious wanting to get out of the way of the the thing you just got shot with! Also, a lot of times people are just in an awkward position when they get hit, so they just fall down.



    No, the best way is to shoot yourself in the chest with a bullet proof vest on.

    Which has been done many times by the owner of Second Chance Vests...on video, with several calibers.

    "A lot of people think I'm kind of stupid for doing this"
    ~ Second chance company president Richard Davis (before getting shot at 'point blank range' with a 12 gauge shotgun slug, and no, he does not fall down, or even take a step back)

    Not sure if the video is online, but it's a well known video in shooting circles. I doubt highly i'll be the only one at WAB that's seen it before.
    When Jonnie Knoxville did that in a Jackass episode he just flinched and dropped the gun. If I recall he did get a big bruise though.
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  9. #39
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    My Dad had a S&W in .41 Mag. I don't remember what model it was , but it was back in the late 60's.... I don't remember if I ever got to fire it...

    I had a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag when they first came out. It had the 7 1/2" barrel. I fired 50 rounds the first day with the wooden stocks and my hand hurt!!!! For some reason it didn't bother me after that, I guess I got used to it. I did add a lighter trigger and hammer spring after that and a set of Pachmyar Presentation model grips. Made rapid fire quite accurate and totally sweet. No more sliding down in your hand with each succesive shot.I kept it loaded with .44 Special silver tips at home to help prevent overpenetration.

    I was dating a 5'3" strawberry blonde about this time and she wanted to be a cop so we naturally went shooting. She thought the .44 mag was great, it kicked less than her .38 snubnose (loaded with .44 Specials). So I asked her if she wanted to shoot it again, which she was quite happy to do. I loaded 5 .44 Specials....... Then made the last round a full bore 240 grain soft point.....

    It about knocked her over! I of course slipped up behind her as she was about to fire that last round. As she went backwards and the gun kicked upwards, I grabbed both her and the gun... The look of shock on her face was priceless, until she saw me laughing.... Then she overcame her blonde heritage and realized she'd been had and then the redhead part kicked into gear...... Driving up on a murder in progress after we left the races one night cured her of wanting to be a cop.

    I have a Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel. I installed a lighter trigger and hammer spring and then polished the action with my Buck knive's Arkansas hard stone. Smoooooooooth!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Captain C; 02 Nov 06, at 03:19.
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  10. #40
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    4" .357 magnum Ruger GP-100.

    GOOD, SOLID WEAPON.

    You can even cap deers and such with it, and under anything resembling normal operating conditions, it will never jam.

    Damned solid choice bro.

  11. #41
    HKHolic Senior Contributor leib10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper View Post
    4" .357 magnum Ruger GP-100.

    GOOD, SOLID WEAPON.

    You can even cap deers and such with it, and under anything resembling normal operating conditions, it will never jam.

    Damned solid choice bro.
    I too have a GP100. Excellent weapon, a true pleasure to shoot, and has never failed me. Mine has a 6" barrel.

    Of course, the Colt Python I got from a friend is quite nice too...
    "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

  12. #42
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    I bought mine because I don't like to leave the magazines for the auto's loaded for long periods of time. I usually have it loaded with 125 gr JHP's from Remington. I've also shot it with a lot of 110 gr. SJHP generic from USA (Olin/Winchester). Very accurate and smooth shooting. The trigger might be a tad too touchy for Police/Bounty hunter work. If you try to take up any trigger slack, you'll just shoot them (again?). The trigger is that smooth and that light!


    Deer around here are usually on the small side until you backpack into the high country. The .357 would do a good job out to about 100-150 yards with the 125 gr. loads.
    Last edited by Captain C; 06 Nov 06, at 23:56.
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  13. #43
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    180gr is the best deer load, the 125's are a bit lightly constructed for that sort of work. GREAT people punchers though.

    I had a Ruger Police Service Six in .357 mag for years. That was a really good, no frills weapon too. Nothing fancy, just business.

    The 9mm Cor-bon 115gr 9mm +P's i use are actually slightly more powerful than most factory 110gr loads, but in essence, they are the 'same' round. Definitely a good load, especially when your sidearm has 16 of em in it's belly.



    It's kinda hard to tell, but in this pic you can see that the hammer is cocked with the safety on the "ON" position (called condition one, aka "cocked and locked"), which is actually a VERY simple modification on S&W 3rd Gen pistols.
    Last edited by Bill; 07 Nov 06, at 04:24.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    In the 1960's a retired Border Patrol Agent named Bill Jordan advocated the .41 magnum as the "ideal" police round. It was supposed to be a good compromise, more powerful than the .357 and more controllable than the .44. For some reason the concept never took off until auto pistols became standard.

    These days the .40 S&W is probably the most widely used police round in the nation. A chief or sheriff that can't hope to win the 9mm v .45ACP argument in his department can pick the .40 S&W. Even if it's not anyone's first choice, both sides of the neverending ballistic argument seem to be able to live with it, and have confidence in it.
    I also read that the .41 magnum was a Bill Jordan concept, it was not supposed to be a full magnum in his idea, but the ammo makers juiced it right out of price use. I have a 3 inch round butt 657, shoots great, have shot it in competition using .41 specials.
    CADPIPE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift Sword View Post
    What was inefficient about the .41 Magnum was the choice of guns when it came out: they were just too flipping big and heavy. I owned a pair of Model 58 S & Ws for awhile and they are just a bit of a burden. I am six foot and 180 pounds and have carried N frame revolvers concealed so I am no stranger to big guns.
    Depicted below is a .44 Rem Mag S&W M629 Mountain Gun with the grips swapped. Note the light 4 inch tapered barrel, round butt, etc.

    Not sure if they ever made a short production run of anything similar chambered in .41 Rem Mag, but perhaps they should have.

    I very much would have liked a 625 dressed out like one of these chambered in .45 Win Mag / . 45 ACP using half moon clips.

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    Last edited by JRT; 12 Oct 18, at 02:00.
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