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Thread: What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

  1. #376
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    Those Soviet Siberian divisions were the cream of the crop. Zukhov cut his teeth with them, killing the Imperial Japanese Army's incursion into Siberia before he took his art West against Paulis and Von Manstein. At the end of the war, they smashed the IJA's Kwangtung Army in Manchuria in a matter of days.

    While Patton is undoubtly one of the best Western allies' manouver generals, he was on par with Zukhov and Chuikov which meant that all three were nowhere near Kesselring, Von Manstein, and Rommel. What the Allies excel at was artillery and bombardment. Manouver was iffy. I don't think Patton could have did any better than Montgomery did. Montgomery caught the Wehrmacht by surprise in Market-Garden. The Wehrmacht was waiting for Patton
    .

    1- The divisions statione din the east in 45 were combat veteran moved form Germany as part of the Potsdam meeting. They were not the same troops who had smashed the Japanese at Glakin-Ghol(?) in Mongolia in 38. Those troops died in 1941 in the Red Armies counter-attack outside moscow.

    2-Zukhov is no wear near Patton. Zukhovs answer to everythign was use a sledgehammer. Much like Montgommery they could only fight set peace battles and could not keep up anytype of sustaine doffensive effort. The Red Army and British 8th Army both rleeid on sprint offensives rather than sustained pressure.

    Rommel is likewise overrated and was at best a good divsional commander. Like Kesselring he was better on the defense than offense and you dont win by defending. Any complex study of his offensives will show a losing record or of gambles taken without a clear cut weighing of the risks.

    Operationally, the great commanders of WW2 are Patton, Mainstein, and Guderian. These are the only three commander sot show that they really grapsed the concept of shock through mobility and firepower as the key victory. Pattons 3rd Army sliced through France at a rat eunequalled by an army anywhere until the US Army in OIF. This depsite magor German counter-attacks and blocking efforts. it was not until his armored troops got sucked into urban fights around Metz and Aachen then he got slowed down.

    Patton had a feel for battle that rivals that of Bobby Lee or Alexander the Great. From shoring up the Army as Casserine to Scicily to the drive across Europe no force ever stopped him, not even Rommel or Kesselring.

    In a what if 1945 US-USSR clash the USSR is doomed. US 8th Airforce heavy bombers and 9th Airforce tactical bombers based from France could have cut every rail line into Poland and Germany isolating the Red Army in the largest pocket ever seen. Russian troops would ahve bene faced with three options, starve, surrender, or walk home.

    Minus the airforces the sides are about equal. The USSR has superior heavy tanks (US 90mm would not penetrate the fornt of an IS-III) and superior numbers of artillery. vs the US with superior volume of fire at the infantry level, ToT artillery capability, and superior divsional formation structure.

  2. #377
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    I think you've confused a few things. The Soviets kept 40 divisions in Siebria to watch the IJA. They were further re-enforced by 47 more divisions from Europe. Patton, Von Manstein, and Guderian were great tacticians but operations has to goto Zukhov. No one managed logistics like he did. Even when Zukhov lost against Von Manstein in the dual Operations Mars and Uranus, he forced Von Manstein to retreat since the latter could not hold onto his gains.

    BTW, welcome to WAB ... even if you are a zipperhead.

  3. #378
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    Those divsions were not first or even second rate, the combat tested ones died outside Moscow in 41.

    Zukhov was not a logistican, if anyone is going to claim that title it has to go to Ike. had Zukhov had any real skill at logisitcs the Red Army would not have repeatedly outrun it's supplies and it would have been able to sustain offensive operations past 60 days. Given anything like fair numbers the average German tactical commander could beat hom hands down every time. A look at the disaster at Seelow hights shows that all Zukhov could do was barrel forward depsite the losses. Even his greatest victories Stalingrad, Kursk, and Bagration had almost nothing to do with his skill and everything to do with Hitlers bungling.

    Aren't you supposed to be digging a hole to die in?

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Those divsions were not first or even second rate, the combat tested ones died outside Moscow in 41.
    LOL. Can you name a Soviet combat division that didn't die?

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Zukhov was not a logistican, if anyone is going to claim that title it has to go to Ike. had Zukhov had any real skill at logisitcs the Red Army would not have repeatedly outrun it's supplies and it would have been able to sustain offensive operations past 60 days.
    I don't see a problem here. They plan for 60 days and they got 60 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Given anything like fair numbers the average German tactical commander could beat hom hands down every time.
    That's just it. He never allowed the Germans the chance at fair numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    A look at the disaster at Seelow hights shows that all Zukhov could do was barrel forward depsite the losses. Even his greatest victories Stalingrad, Kursk, and Bagration had almost nothing to do with his skill and everything to do with Hitlers bungling.
    I have to disagree here. He fought battles of attrition, knowing no matter how brilliant the manouver on the part of the Germans, they cannot sustain the losses. He used the sledge hammer, yes but he knew how to use the sledge hammer ... unlike his pre-successors.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Aren't you supposed to be digging a hole to die in?
    I'm too busy getting your butts across a puddle to die.

  5. #380
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    That's just it. He never allowed the Germans the chance at fair numbers.
    That has more to do with Todt and Hitler not increasing German industrial output till mid 43.

    I have to disagree here. He fought battles of attrition, knowing no matter how brilliant the manouver on the part of the Germans, they cannot sustain the losses. He used the sledge hammer, yes but he knew how to use the sledge hammer ... unlike his pre-successors.
    What if for you to illustrate my point. Instead of watch on the Rhine the reserve of 1200 AFV's built up by Mainstein is used as he hoped 500 in the west, 350 on the Oder and 350 in the Balkans/Carpathians. I think that in such a sceanrio Vienna never falls, Seelow is a defeat and Russia has to watch as the Allies finally roll into Berlin in late 45. He was so wasteful with men that by 45 Russia was out of men.

  6. #381
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    I think we're speaking past each other at this point. We're looking at the same set of data and arriving at different conclusions. I agree that Todt Hitler did not speed things up any ... but that does not change the fact that Zuhkov amassed overwhelming numbers before attacking.

    We have no dispute over the events, just a different conclusion here.

    I, however, dispute that the Siberian divisions were even 3rd rate. Soviet 1st rate divisions got that way through blood and fire. Any fresh division was going to get the same treatment. As demonstrated by their performance in Manchuria.

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    I, however, dispute that the Siberian divisions were even 3rd rate. Soviet 1st rate divisions got that way through blood and fire. Any fresh division was going to get the same treatment. As demonstrated by their performance in Manchuria.
    Soveit divsion in the far east asisnged to guard duty did not recive new equipment as the war progressed. Older equipment pulled out of the line as obsolete vs Germany could and was redirected but these divsions would have gotten slaughtered on the west. They were aslo starved for fuel and ammuntion, cutting into training. However good the human stock the logistics doom them to third rate status.

    Also the IJN in Manchuria and Korea was not set up to fight a modern war agaisnt a mechanized oppoent. Even early war BT's and T-34/76m41's would ahve been like Panthers and Tigers.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    However good the human stock the logistics doom them to third rate status.
    Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Also the IJN in Manchuria and Korea was not set up to fight a modern war agaisnt a mechanized oppoent. Even early war BT's and T-34/76m41's would ahve been like Panthers and Tigers.
    The IJ-"N" in Manchuria and Korea? HEHEEHHEHEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Ahhh, I think you give too much credit to the Boat People.

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    .In a what if 1945 US-USSR clash the USSR is doomed. US 8th Airforce heavy bombers and 9th Airforce tactical bombers based from France could have cut every rail line into Poland and Germany isolating the Red Army in the largest pocket ever seen. Russian troops would ahve bene faced with three options, starve, surrender, or walk home.
    Agreed, as previously stated.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Soveit divsion in the far east asisnged to guard duty did not recive new equipment as the war progressed. Older equipment pulled out of the line as obsolete vs Germany could and was redirected but these divsions would have gotten slaughtered on the west. They were aslo starved for fuel and ammuntion, cutting into training. However good the human stock the logistics doom them to third rate status.
    Only for so long as they were logistically neglected.

    Once the logistics did stream to them, they showed quite clearly how effective they were when they shattered a whole Japanese army in a matter of days.

    That the Japanese forces that opposed them were ill-equipped for mechanized warfare is no fault of the Russians, so IMO, cannot be "held against them".

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper View Post
    Only for so long as they were logistically neglected.

    Once the logistics did stream to them, they showed quite clearly how effective they were when they shattered a whole Japanese army in a matter of days.

    That the Japanese forces that opposed them were ill-equipped for mechanized warfare is no fault of the Russians, so IMO, cannot be "held against them".
    It also does not change the fact that until the supply pipeline is opened up those are third rate divisions. And that until the war in the west was concluded allowing a massive re-informcement along with the IJA (got it right this time) pulling troops out of the theater to fight the Americans and Austrailians among the South pacifics islands the force was not capable of a sucessful offensive operation.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    It also does not change the fact that until the supply pipeline is opened up those are third rate divisions. And that until the war in the west was concluded allowing a massive re-informcement along with the IJA (got it right this time) pulling troops out of the theater to fight the Americans and Austrailians among the South pacifics islands the force was not capable of a sucessful offensive operation.
    Fair enuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by griftadan View Post
    about the t34 sherman chassi thing, i got another interesting story. have you guys heard about the russian b29 story? there were b29 that flew over the himalays from british bases to firebomb japan, and on there way 3 of them had mechanical problems and had to land in vladivostock. anyways, the pilots returned safely, but the russians kept the b29s, and stalin ordered an immediate copy to be made for the russian airforce. everything was copied, down to the last detail, no origianl russian inovations were put in. they unveiled them in a mayday parade, infront of some US military official, to brag i guess. i forgot what they named the russian copy, does anyone know?
    Tu-4 flew in May 1947 and participated in millitary parade in August 1947... so it took 2 years to copy it.... it was copied from few B-29 which landed in Vladivostok. Few hundred were manufactured by 1952.
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/tu-4.htm

    however it is wrong to say that Soviet Union did not have their own long-range projects.... they were not finished as Stalin insisted on fast copying of B-29.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    Tu-4 flew in May 1947 and participated in millitary parade in August 1947... so it took 2 years to copy it.... it was copied from few B-29 which landed in Vladivostok. Few hundred were manufactured by 1952.
    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/tu-4.htm

    however it is wrong to say that Soviet Union did not have their own long-range projects.... they were not finished as Stalin insisted on fast copying of B-29.
    The "TU-4" was such a blatant clone of the B-29 that the dumbassed reverse engineering Russian monkees that copied it actually printed the word "Boeing" on the brake pedal, just like on a real B29.

    LOL....assclowns.

  15. #390
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    There was a History Channel show on the "Russian B-29." They were such perfect copies of the original that they suffered from engine overheating, just like the original.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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