What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

[Ironduke]

I ask you, did Rome have any more problems from Carthage after they razed it to the ground and sewed the soil with salt?

They didn't sew the soil with salt... at the time salt was worth its weight in gold :)

[Officer of Engineers]

THE FOLLOWING ARE THE RULES OF THE JUNGLE:




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I thought it was

1) Do onto others as you would they onto you.
2) Do it 1st.

[Bill]

I agree. At that time, had we gotten into a nuclear confrontation with Russia, they would have fared much worse. Nonetheless, nobody wanted to get into a nuke fight. The concept of M.A.D. hadn't been conceived in it's irrefutable glory yet yes, but the "fear" of atomic warfare dominated political discussion.


We had the bombers and the devices to destroy the Soviet Union as a viable functioning society then yes. We certainly would NOT have been thought of in Russia, and in other Warsaw Pact countries as "the guys who freed us from Tyranny" had we annhiliated Kiev, Moscow, Leningrad, Warsaw, Bucharest etc, in the interest of defeating the USSR however, -- especially had American cities been largely spared from nuclear destruction.

Russians are well aware of the concept of tyranny, despite any acquiescence to it. I would guarantee a festering hatred of all things American had all of Russia's major cities been destroyed.

Just as the Japanese and Germans hate us with a burning passion today for our destruction of virtually ALL of their respective cities?

I ask you, do the German people hate us for WWII? Do the Japanese people? Do the Italian people?

Hardly.

As for China, one did not need to enter China to anhillate Chinese, there were huge quantities of them in Korea. We simply needed to kill everyone they sent until they sent no more of their own accord, or because there were none left to send.

That would've been a total victory.

Finally, wrt the difference between killing a prisoner or killing an innocent civvie from 30k feet with bombs, no, i dont really see a difference.

Both are as morally reprehensible as they are effective.

If you'd need to give them a little show-trial to make you feel better, eh, whatever. If you execute them with a trial it's the same thing anyway, cause they're just as dead.

[Bill]

I thought it was

1) Do onto others as you would they onto you.
2) Do it 1st.

That works too i guess. ;)

[Goatboy]

Just as the Japanese and Germans hate us with a burning passion today for our destruction of virtually ALL of their respective cities?

I ask you, do the German people hate us for WWII? Do the Japanese people? Do the Italian people?
.

No they don't, and I'm glad they don't -- they're among our most powerful and closest allies. And I love both countries for that (among other reasons -- and yes I know you don't like Japanese) But a one-sided nuclear war, where many cities are obliterated in the USSR, but none in the US will DEFINITELY be a sore point for survivors in the USSR.

[Officer of Engineers]

No they don't, and I'm glad they don't -- they're among our most powerful and closest allies.

Well, the French did far more than the Germans. And what has Japan done?

[Goatboy]

Well, the French did far more than the Germans. And what has Japan done?

Well, to keep it simple, I'll talk about Japan.

Japan and America have benefited ENORMOUSLY from trade with each other over the decades -- Japan and America are extremely close allies are they not? Japan is still Asia's economic giant in many/perhaps most respects, despite the rise of China (although that may change in the coming decades). Japan, and its various islands, represent the most important "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the region does it not?

I'm not one to criticize Japan's historic reluctance (since '45) to build up its military, even though America criticized the hell out of Japan for its "checkbook diplomacy" policy in 1991. I'd like Japan to do more, and I think it should, but that doesn't detract from how important Japan is. We should thank our lucky stars Japan and the United States see eye to eye far more often than literally ANY country in East Asia.

[Officer of Engineers]

Japan, and its various islands, represent the most important "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the region does it not?

And you do recalled what Andropov said about that, don't you?

We should thank our lucky stars Japan and the United States see eye to eye far more often than literally ANY country in East Asia.

You ever noticed that the US's 3 closest allies in the region, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan don't have a military alliance with each other? In fact, the US recently got Japan to agree to help out in case of a PRC attack on Taiwan. Taipei's answer was no. Not even a no, thank you. Just a no.

Germany and Japan doesn't even come close to the ABCA (American, British, Canadian, Australian) friendship. Even when we said no, we said yes. You do know that Canada was the 4th largest force contributor to OIF despites Ottawa's choice of staying out. The Naval task groups providing flank protections were officially assigned to OEF but were operating under CENTCOM who used them as they pleased.

It took severe arm twisting to get Japan to send in one construction battalion for one tour. British and Canadian troops are dying in the field.

Close is relative but Japan isn't on par.

[Goatboy]

Germany and Japan doesn't even come close to the ABCA (American, British, Canadian, Australian) friendship. Even when we said no, we said yes. You do know that Canada was the 4th largest force contributor to OIF despites Ottawa's choice of staying out. The Naval task groups providing flank protections were officially assigned to OEF but were operating under CENTCOM who used them as they pleased.

It took severe arm twisting to get Japan to send in one construction battalion for one tour. British and Canadian troops are dying in the field.

Close is relative but Japan isn't on par.

Respectfully, I did say "East Asia", not England, Australia or Canada. Doesn't Japan provide something which Canada, Australia or England can't? strategic location at least? doesn't matter. I agree, I wish Japan had gotten off its ass and took more initiative -- hopefully the new Japanese prime minister will move things in the right direction.

I don't think we can dismiss the importance of having the second largest economic power on the planet as our ally. Add Australia, Canada and the UK together and they'll approximately equal Japan's GDP. Yes I'm aware that the UK actually invests more the US than anyone else (including Japan or China), or that Canada is a larger trading partner than Japan, but still, are there other major countries in East Asia so determined to be our ally? I can't think of any. And with that, I bid goodnight lol, goat's gotta crash...

[Officer of Engineers]

You've stated that Japan is among the US's most powerful and closest ally. I submit that they are nothing of the kind. A good trading partner but ally is the wrong word.

[leib10]

They're not going to budge for anybody except themselves. They've had their fill of militarism (as have the Germans, for the most part) and they're trying to live past that.

[astralis]

goatboy,

I agree, I wish Japan had gotten off its ass and took more initiative -- hopefully the new Japanese prime minister will move things in the right direction.

the japanese-american relationship today has been the closest it's ever been. i doubt it will get much closer. shinzo abe's isn't quite as fixated on america as koizumu was- his first trip as PM was to south korea.

the japanese public and bureaucratic elite are demanding that he fix relationships with the rest of east asia, so that's what he's going to do. in south korea, there's already an uneasy feeling that the japanese-american relationship is TOO close for their comfort.

now, i doubt abe will really come through and address the main difficulties in the SK-japan relationship, namely yasukuni and dokdo, so my guess is that he will either try to make weak moves towards bringing the SK's closer to japan or at least rhetorically distance himself somewhat from the americans.

[Goatboy]

goatboy,

the japanese-american relationship today has been the closest it's ever been. i doubt it will get much closer. shinzo abe's isn't quite as fixated on america as koizumu was- his first trip as PM was to south korea.

Yup, as you say, the US-Japanese relationship hasn't ever been closer. Also, I agree, I don't necessarily see us "getting closer still" without something "big" happening in East Asia. Certainly military cooperation between the US and Japan is increasing still, with joint research on a viable missile defence system, and with Japan now considering Taiwan (or at the very very least the Japanese islands stretching from Okinawa to very near it) part of Japan's active security.


Abe probably knows he's not going to be as buddy buddy with Bush as Koizumu (who's probably the hippest, coolest PM anywhere -- simply by being "the worlds biggest Elvis fan" lol).

Nonetheless, I think it's clear that something as mundane as the " passage of time" has changed Japanese opinion, without any influence from the outside at all. It's always that way.

the japanese public and bureaucratic elite are demanding that he fix relationships with the rest of east asia, so that's what he's going to do. in south korea, there's already an uneasy feeling that the japanese-american relationship is TOO close for their comfort.

The Japanese public are correct in this regard I think. I hope the Chinese and South Korean public display as much wisdom -- I doubt it frankly. Of course public opinion doesn't necessarily dictate policy.

now, i doubt abe will really come through and address the main difficulties in the SK-japan relationship, namely yasukuni and dokdo, so my guess is that he will either try to make weak moves towards bringing the SK's closer to japan or at least rhetorically distance himself somewhat from the americans.

I don't see the SK-Japanese relationship improving all that much either. But they're not enemies at least -- more like glowering peers.

[astralis]

goatboy,

The Japanese public are correct in this regard I think. I hope the Chinese and South Korean public display as much wisdom -- I doubt it frankly. Of course public opinion doesn't necessarily dictate policy.

actually, polls in both places show that the chinese and koreans believe that a good relationship with japan is important. however, the majority of the onus is on the japanese to face their severe image problems not just with china and korea, but the rest of east asia.

and the japanese public has been contradictory on it. when asked if they support the PM going to yasukuni, a good majority of japanese say no.

however, when asked if the PM should continue visiting after pressure from the chinese and koreans....a good majority of japanese say yes.

a natural nationalistic response. just goes to show how difficult the problem is.

[Goatboy]

goatboy,

actually, polls in both places show that the chinese and koreans believe that a good relationship with japan is important. however, the majority of the onus is on the japanese to face their severe image problems not just with china and korea, but the rest of east asia.


and the japanese public has been contradictory on it. when asked if they support the PM going to yasukuni, a good majority of japanese say no.

however, when asked if the PM should continue visiting after pressure from the chinese and koreans....a good majority of japanese say yes.

a natural nationalistic response. just goes to show how difficult the problem is.

It's funny how polls work isn't it lol. You could poll a political question, get a response, then ask the exact same question using different phrasing and get a completely different response :P

Japan hasn't owned up to its behavior during WW2 in the same way as Germany, nevertheless Japanese Prime Minsters have apologized deeply countless times, including face to face with South Korean, and Chinese premiers. I'd like to see more though. History textbooks are inaccurate, the 14 war criminals "buried" at the Yakusuni shine, and I'd like to see more Japanese financial assistance to victims of Japanese aggression for starters.