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What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

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  • Originally posted by dalem
    Oh well. Enjoy your version of history.

    -dale
    Also you enjoy your version of history.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Prosto ILya
      Far more experience? In the beginning of the war USSR subs were much less advanced (almost full copy of a Germa older subs). Still, they managed to sink Nazi ships and evade sophisticated mines. At the end of the war, many subs were reconstructed and upgraded – and experience of their crews was more than high.
      Our subs were better though, and our crews, at worst, were just as good as the SOviet Union's. I doubt you will find many who support your belief, anywhere, that the Russian navy could have put up much of a fight against the American navy. Germany's navy never seriously challenged American supremacy, and as late as 1944 the Soviet Navy was incapable of preventing large German seaborne evacuations from the Baltic Coast. There was no doubt, and never has been any doubt, that even after admiral Gorshkov's reforms (which made the Soviet navy much stronger), that the Soviet Navy would be able to do anything more than hurt the American Navy. Immediately after WWII? The Soviet Union never had a chance to damage the US Navy, much less defeat it. On land, the Soviet Union had a chance of victory, although I don't think it was likely. At sea? No way in hell.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Prosto ILya
        To 1945 there were almost no Soviet solder who never smelled gunpowder. Accordinf to our documentary movies and historical books. And that is not communist propaganda.
        And so I suppose that in 1944 the Soviet Army stopped receiving replacements? The point that OoE is trying to make here is that the Soviet Army suffered tremendous casualties during every campaign, far more than the American or British Armies. Because of that fact, our fewer combat veterans lived, while most of yours died. The end result? The United States and British armies had probably about as many combat hardened troops proportionate to the Russian army. It's simple mathematics. Germany killed a lot of Russian soldiers, and if you look at the casualty rates, and the number of new troops inducted, and the average amount of training that those new troops recieved, the Russian Army was not as all conquering as your history of the Great Patriotic War has led you to believe.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Blademaster
          Also you enjoy your version of history.
          Point out something I've typed that is blatantly contradictory to the facts of history.

          -dale

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dalem
            Point out something I've typed that is blatantly contradictory to the facts of history.

            -dale
            I don't have to. The facts of history is your version of history. Get it?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Praxus
              So your saying 20 million dead is a "valuable... historical lesson"? There's nothing to learn from, if you don't know that killing 20 million innocent people is wrong, then one would have to question your sannity.
              20 million dead is valuable historical lesson. Such lesson prevents further casualties. Such lessons shows the horrors, that never be forgotten. Yes – this is very valuable lesson

              Originally posted by Praxus
              Oh and please, don't try and change the subject

              Change subject?
              Interesting. All I sad that any country has enough grim and catastrophic facts in history. And make an example.



              Originally posted by Praxus
              Communism is nothing more then primitive tribalism. It seeks to destroy the national Government and put in it's place miniture "Workers Councils". Furthermore, it completely ignores the facts of reality.
              Facts of reality of modern society. Society changes with time.



              Originally posted by Praxus
              Oh so you mean the people had no control in the matter and we're completly under the command of the government.

              Hmm sounds fimiliar. Ohhh thats right, SLAVERY!
              Slavery - A system of enforced servitude in which people are owned by others and in which enslaved status is transferred from parents to children. the state of being under the control of another person.

              Originally posted by dalem
              Oh well. Enjoy your version of history.

              -dale
              I will. You, on the other hand, enjoy yours.



              Originally posted by lwarmonger
              Germany killed a lot of Russian soldiers, and if you look at the casualty rates, and the number of new troops inducted, and the average amount of training that those new troops recieved, the Russian Army was not as all conquering as your history of the Great Patriotic War has led you to believe.
              “My history of the Great Patriotic War” which nowadays cleansed of politburo crap, is written by veterans of Great Patriotic War. I led to believe them.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Prosto ILya
                20 million dead is valuable historical lesson. Such lesson prevents further casualties. Such lessons shows the horrors, that never be forgotten. Yes – this is very valuable lesson
                If you view it as a "lesson" then you view it as a practicle matter and not a moral one. I say again, if you don't know it's wrong to kill 20 million people and you need 20 million people to die to prove it, then quite frankly your fundamentally irrational.

                Change subject?
                Interesting. All I sad that any country has enough grim and catastrophic facts in history. And make an example.
                No you tried to change the subject to American history. You’re saying, "Well my country wasn't the only one with a brutal history". Well guess what, that's irrelevant to the fact that Soviet Russia was EVIL.

                Facts of reality of modern society. Society changes with time.
                A system, which rejects man’s requirements in a society, is bound to fail. Man's nature is unchanging as long as man is man. As I said before Communism has no basis in reality.

                Slavery - A system of enforced servitude in which people are owned by others and in which enslaved status is transferred from parents to children. the state of being under the control of another person.
                Wow, sounds awfully like life under Soviet Russia. Are you trying to agree with me here, I'm confused?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Praxus
                  If you view it as a "lesson" then you view it as a practicle matter and not a moral one. I say again, if you don't know it's wrong to kill 20 million people and you need 20 million people to die to prove it, then quite frankly your fundamentally irrational.
                  “Question my sanity”,” fundamentally irrational”… Next time, I guess, you will spit in a monitor.

                  Can you show me my post, with following words “don't know it's wrong to kill 20 million people and you need 20 million people to die to prove it”?
                  Al I said, that death of 20 millions is a valuable lesson, that prevents such terrible things in a future.


                  Originally posted by Praxus
                  No you tried to change the subject to American history. You’re saying, "Well my country wasn't the only one with a brutal history". Well guess what, that's irrelevant to the fact that Soviet Russia was EVIL.
                  My country has almost 1000 years old history. During this time, there were tremendous acts of brutality.
                  And 72 years of Russia was Totaly Evil only for West. Soviet Russia gave to Russian culture great actors, writers, and heroes.

                  Originally posted by Praxus
                  A system, which rejects man’s requirements in a society, is bound to fail. Man's nature is unchanging as long as man is man. As I said before Communism has no basis in reality.
                  A Communism major rejection – a superiority of one human over others. Man’s natures changing greatly, with evolution of human mind and soul and developing new ways of technology.



                  Originally posted by Praxus
                  Wow, sounds awfully like life under Soviet Russia. Are you trying to agree with me here, I'm confused?
                  Wow! I sense a mega-expert! How long time of your mortal existence you spend in Russia? Or all your knowledge bases on “documental” movies and scary stories of emigrants?
                  Last edited by Prosto ILya; 02 Mar 05,, 17:44.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Prosto ILya
                    “Question my sanity”,” fundamentally irrational”… Next time, I guess, you will spit in a monitor.

                    Can you show me my post, with following words “don't know it's wrong to kill 20 million people and you need 20 million people to die to prove it”?
                    Al I said, that death of 20 millions is a valuable lesson, that prevents such terrible things in a future.
                    Why would you say that 20 millions death is a valuable lesson? If you think it's a valueable lesson then obviously you think some people need to be shown just how terrible it is to kill 20 million people. Oh and genious, I never said that you were irrationall, only the people that you imply need a lesson to stop from killing 20 million people.

                    My country has almost 1000 years old history. During this time, there were tremendous acts of brutality.
                    And 72 years of Russia was Evil only for West. Soviet Russia gave to Russian culture great actors, writers, and heroes.
                    Would you ever call a Nazi a great hero? Of course not! So why do you call people who are just as evil "great heros"?



                    A Communism major rejection – a superiority of one human over others. Man’s natures changing greatly, with evolution of human mind and soul and developing new ways of technology.
                    Man's nature is that which gives man his identity. What seperates him from the animals. Reason is what seperates us, and the fact that we must reason to survive is unchanging, no matter how much technology evolves.




                    Wow! I sense a mega-expert! How long time of your mortal existence you spend in Russia? Or all your knowledge bases on “documental” movies and scary stories of emigrants?
                    So now I have to be Russian to judge how evil Soviet Russia is. Tell me then, how can you ever come to a conclusion about any country, by your standard without being there.

                    Can you tell me for example, do you consider Imperial Japan a bad thing? If you do, how do you know, you've never been there.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blademaster
                      I don't have to. The facts of history is your version of history. Get it?
                      Clever but empty. At a certain level history is not relative.

                      -dale

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Praxus
                        Why would you say that 20 millions death is a valuable lesson? If you think it's a valueable lesson then obviously you think some people need to be shown just how terrible it is to kill 20 million people. Oh and genious, I never said that you were irrationall, only the people that you imply need a lesson to stop from killing 20 million people.
                        Conversation of a mute with a deaf (old saying, nothing more).

                        Gosh. I said that, that 20 millions is valuable lesson – because it’s HISTORICAL valuable. And now, now one will ever (I hope) will build a communism same way as those Lenin-Stalin –and-company did. As no one (I hope) will never bring inquisiton back to live, or star to prove that one nationality superior to other. That is my only point.



                        Originally posted by Praxus
                        Would you ever call a Nazi a great hero? Of course not! So why do you call people who are just as evil "great heros"?
                        Conversation of a mute with a deaf 2: New Beginning

                        Heroes of the Soviet times – Gagarin, Titov, Leonov, Korolev, Matrosov, Marinesku.
                        Solders, Cosmonauts, Engineers. They are Heroes. People who are as evil as Nazi – are people who are as evil as Nazi. I never said, that they were heroes.




                        Originally posted by Praxus
                        Man's nature is that which gives man his identity. What seperates him from the animals. Reason is what seperates us, and the fact that we must reason to survive is unchanging, no matter how much technology evolves.
                        Man’s character, mind, believes and personality made man a man. During Stone Age it was quit normally to eat you fellow comrade in dull cold winter nights. In Middle Age it was quite normal to send to a flames any one, who dared to imply than sun has spots and earth is not flat, as Terry Partchet Discworld. Now days are common to distrust people of other religion, skin color and culture. These will past – human natures not changing – it is evolving.


                        Originally posted by Praxus
                        So now I have to be Russian to judge how evil Soviet Russia is. Tell me then, how can you ever come to a conclusion about any country, by your standard without being there. Can you tell me for example, do you consider Imperial Japan a bad thing? If you do, how do you know, you've never been there.
                        [/QUOTE]

                        I prefer no to come to any conclusion about any country (I thought, that in my previous posts I never did it). And I don not consider an Imperial Japan total bad thing (explanation for mega-experts – that phrase does not mean, that I adore Japan air forces attacking Pearl Harbor, invasion China ) – I do not have enough knowledge about this matter. But still, I prefer to know opinion of Japan citizen, read historical documents written by both of opposite sides before jump to any conclusions.

                        Comment


                        • "USSR failed and West “wins” thanks to one man. USA citizen likes to say “Thanks Reigan”. Hardly. Thanks to Michael “The Traitor” Gorbachev."

                          With delusion like that i can not help but to feel that it won't be too long before we're calling the Reds our enemies again...

                          Gorbachev saved your little tin-pot empire from utter economic ruin.

                          Idiot.

                          Comment


                          • "Originally Posted by stratadmir
                            Plus the US navy was ar more superior to the USSR and the UK was more superior


                            According to whom? At the end of war USSR has more than enough submarines with war trained crews."

                            Wow, you truly are delusional.

                            There is NOTHING the Russians could've done to stop the USN in 45.

                            Nothing.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              With delusion like that i can not help but to feel that it won't be too long before we're calling the Reds our enemies again...
                              Call Reds whatever you like. I really don not care. Gorbachev traded his country for Nobel prize of piece and blew it.


                              Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              Idiot.
                              You are welcome

                              Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              "

                              Wow, you truly are delusional.
                              Wow. It’s your favorite word, as I can see!

                              Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              There is NOTHING the Russians could've done to stop the USN in 45.
                              Nothing.
                              Another delusion?

                              Comment


                              • Do you have any clue whatsoever as to the size and scope of the USN during the end of WWII?

                                Obviously, the answer is no.

                                Just answer me this comrade...how many Carriers could the US have commited to the N.Atlantic after VJ day?

                                Hint: It's over 100.

                                BTW, ole' Gorby saved the lot of you from utter economic ruin(barely).
                                Last edited by Bill; 03 Mar 05,, 12:27.

                                Comment

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