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  • Africa - WTF?

    Reading OoE's recent comments in the "Useless UN" thread got me thinking of this again.

    Africa - WTF?

    Can anything be done? Should anything be done? Money doesn't work. As OoE points out, constant flipping in by non-African powers to clean up messes, while effective in the short term, aren't really a long-term solution.

    I used to think that the best thing would be for Egypt to move South and South Africa to move North until they met in the middle, and then form a large confederation or union of African states.

    Now I don't even think Egypt or S.A. are much above the basket case stage themselves.

    So what do people think?

    -dale

  • #2
    The problem with most of Africa is that it's still the Stone Age. With modern societies (which includes most of the Middle East and Iran), we have risen above that where the one thing that must occur in order for our societies to function - co-operation. We need to organize ourselves and in turn value ourselves as part of that organization in order to prosper. War threatens and destroys that organization.

    Africa for the most part, lacks that. They have no more problems about killing a human being than killing a chicken. Alot of societies there, you don't become a man until you kill another man. Now, alot of it is just bluster, it ain't easy killing someone who has no qualms about killing you but it is not a moral revulsion.

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    • #3
      i would attribute the main problem of africa to the fact that the way it was colonially formed (using imperialist aspirations of 'divide-and-rule') that left most of the tribes within a nation crammed uncomfortably together. when they were given independence, the former bonds of empire came loose, and the formerly restrained tensions between various groups erupted.

      so you're talking about an inherently tribal society trying to function within a global system that has (somewhat largely) moved onto nationalism.

      that is africa's main problem; the power of the nation-state to do anything (past perhaps kill, and even then, not competently by western standards) is too decentralized because its peoples don't even believe or identify in the concept of the nation to begin with.

      basically what col yu said. only in political scientist egg-head terms.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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      • #4
        The best thing for them would be a return to colonial rule under a UN mandate. Even the UN has admitted Africa was better under colonial rule.

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        • #5
          LYKE OMGDGSS WTF BBQ CHRISF202 J00 RACIESTtt!11111wun wun

          There'd be an international outcry similar to above if it were to ever return to colonial rule. Under a UN mandate or not.

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          • #6
            This is what Y. Shimomura in states in his paper "Democracy, Governance and the role of the State in Economic Development: An East Asian Perspective," that he presented to the African Development Institute, Annual Meetings Symposium, Africa Development Bank, Abuja, 23 May 1995.

            "The experience of East Asia seems to be worthy of careful study for two reasons. First, East Asian economies have achieved 'rapid and equitable growth', as several recent studies (including World Bank ) illustrated. Second, these economies have adopted their own distinctive approaches of economic development, which are different, to a certain extent, from the model which has been advocated by the Western countries and international institutions."

            What is this model of Africa that is different to the western one?

            The colonial powers created states to suit their purpose and carved territories where mutual antagonisms have outweighed common interests. States were
            created where populations – such as the pastoral peoples of Somalia - were ill
            prepared for or ill disposed towards submission to a central authority. In places, a
            consequence of colonial partition has been armed insurgencies, sometimes where
            there is a fight over the control of natural resources.

            The problem that now arises is whether it is better to keep borders untouched, leaving the potential for continuing conflict, or change the frontiers and potentially encourage secessionist movements in other locations.

            A neat dilemma!

            Another problems is that colonial powers left their erstwhile colonies to be a
            shadow of its colonial template, ruled by coercion not consent.

            The African rulers derived their legitimacy from their ability to direct resources to their followers. Politicians and bureaucrats therefore were and are expected to behave as patrons of their clients. There is and can be no distinguishing between the public and the private realm. The most successful politicians integrate the two, delivering spoils to the largest numbers of people.

            Further, Africa has been but mere tribes and their world revolved around the same. Christianity and Islam tried to bring in some semblance of a "larger society" but this has not been fully realised. Thus, there is a conflict between the old ways and the one imposed on them. I believe that since the Church influence has declined, the African traditional forms have been grudgingly allowed into the Church. If this is correct, it is another indicator that the African way of preceiving worldly norms is different and rooted in their tribal ways.

            Therefore, this disconnect is one of the main reasons for strife.


            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

            HAKUNA MATATA

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Karna
              LYKE OMGDGSS WTF BBQ CHRISF202 J00 RACIESTtt!11111wun wun

              There'd be an international outcry similar to above if it were to ever return to colonial rule. Under a UN mandate or not.
              It has nothing to do with skin color but rather with the stupid tribal differences.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by astralis
                i would attribute the main problem of africa to the fact that the way it was colonially formed (using imperialist aspirations of 'divide-and-rule') that left most of the tribes within a nation crammed uncomfortably together. when they were given independence, the former bonds of empire came loose, and the formerly restrained tensions between various groups erupted.

                so you're talking about an inherently tribal society trying to function within a global system that has (somewhat largely) moved onto nationalism.

                that is africa's main problem; the power of the nation-state to do anything (past perhaps kill, and even then, not competently by western standards) is too decentralized because its peoples don't even believe or identify in the concept of the nation to begin with.

                basically what col yu said. only in political scientist egg-head terms.
                I agree with this in part, but only in part. It has already been pointed out elsewhere in this forum (I don't quite recall where) that Africa was having serious problems before Europeans began to make a significant impact. It had empires, but those collapsed without any help from the Europeans. That left a continent organized at the tribal level... and that is not sufficient to operate in an industrialized (or even industrializing) world.

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                • #9
                  One thing that is universally ignored over the history of Africa is the impact of Islam and the Middle Eastern countries. Slavery for instance, while not on the scale of the Americas trade was endemic throughout North, Central and Eastern Africa for centuries, as was resource exploitation.
                  In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                  Leibniz

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                  • #10
                    The best thing for them would be a return to colonial rule under a UN mandate. Even the UN has admitted Africa was better under colonial rule.
                    Huh? African society's were in many cases moving foward developing states and laws. The Fanti confederation would be a good example and the list of goals it set down in writing. Being on a tribal level is not wrong and does not give the right to basically enslave the locals. In the late 1800s Africa was exporting goods and was a part of the global market. European colonial rule ruined Africa.

                    Turning them into slaves under a UN mandate would be a crime. And let us not forget the UN here...

                    What is wrong are the dictators. Dictators and other parties turn up ethnic conflicts, sell off all the resources to put the money into foreign bank accounts and so forth.
                    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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                    • #11
                      I say force europe to actually clean up a mess of their making for a change.
                      F/A-18E/F Super Hornet: The Honda Accord of fighters.

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                      • #12
                        Turn it into a sweatshop. It's working right now for India and China, and once their labour becomes too expensive, then Africa probably will turn into a sweatshop on its own. The obstacles are infrastructure and stability, but the carrot of exports will provoke more nutter dictators and militias into stability and economic development.
                        HD Ready?

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                        • #13
                          In my view, the problem with Africa is that thanks to imperialism, many nations are crammed into the existing states. If those states had remained a part of the European empires, they would have benefitted from European rule and become quite prosperous, much as the remaining European colonies are today. Unfortunately, they are not, and no European country is likely to want the thankless task of getting these states into shape, considering the high expense of doing so. The solution is likely partition, and the creation of new states along the lines of the European ones, and a return to pre-imperial boundaries, and a reversal of the process under which unrelated nations were lumped together for imperial administrative simplicity. This solution may apply to the artificial states of the Philippines and Indonesia, as well, both of which are competing, alongside Burma, Laos and Cambodia, for the title of the sick man of East Asia, despite having huge natural resources.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zhang Fei
                            In my view, the problem with Africa is that thanks to imperialism, many nations are crammed into the existing states.
                            Actually, Africa's biggest problem is that it doesn't really have nations, it only has tribes. If it had nations, then things would be a bit better.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lwarmonger
                              Actually, Africa's biggest problem is that it doesn't really have nations, it only has tribes. If it had nations, then things would be a bit better.
                              Indeed, the division of ethnic groups amongst totally artificial post-colonial states (I kind of feel like all national boundaries are artificial, but these are the extreme) has been the biggest problem, as it has lead to perpetual conflicts in which no side can gain decisive victories, thus preventing investment and economic and infrastructural development. Without money, schools and hospitals people cant lift themselves out of the dirt, and they blame other ethnic groups for putting them in that position (sometimes with some basis). You can also pin a lot of blame on European Nations for dividing the peoples of Africa, choosing favourites from amongst them, making them into banana republics, and then, in many cases, stealing everything that wasn't nailed down when they finally found the venture to be unprofitable.
                              While things do seem to be slowly improving (It's not getting better in most places, but it's not getting worse as quickly as it was), it's still going to be a real, real long time until Africa is stable and starts to prosper. Maybe things could be sped up if all the national boundaries were broken up and Africa unified into a single state, or smaller group of states, (Say all the French-speaking nations grouping together, all the English-speaking nations doing the same, etc.), but that wont happen.

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