this thread seems to continue longer than the war it self :D:D:D
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Best Tank of WWII
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Let's see if this can be kepting going... unlike the disappointing short war
Bugs,
I have never been a big fan of the Tiger B. Too undependable, even by German standards it was a plodding machine. The Russians captured an example and shot the hell out of it with different types of tank rounds. They found 122 hit at the edges of the weld seams would tear the plating open, and massive spalling was recorded found all over the tank with non-pepentrating hits.
Tiger Es were technically inferior to late war IS-2s. The earier Joseph Stalin tanks had a "step" like chasis that almost appears to be an immitation of the superstructure/hull set up on German tanks. It was 120mm of not so well sloped armor on top of thinner, IIRC well sloped 60mm armor. This type was vulnerable to 88mm L/56 guns. I suspect that was what Gross Deutland ran into as they reported they could neutralize the IS-2 at the range of about 1,100 meters but Russian fire at longer ranges could knoch the Tigers out. That encounter was sufficient to convince Hasso von Manteuffel that the IS-2 "was the best tank of the war".
Late production IS-2 has 90mm-110mm of one-piece face plate sloped at 60 degrees, thickness depending on from which factory it was manufactured. The 90mm hulls were made with better cast steel plate. This model, according to German estimates, could not be penetrated by the Tiger E's weaponry even at 100 meters. The Panther's more powerful 75mm L/70 could penetrate IS-2 armor at 700 meters, again according to German sources. The IS-2's 122mm could return the favor at 1,000 meters. For a breathrough tank, the late war IS-2 M44 was a deadly design. It certainly deserves to be on the list.All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
-Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.
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See that on battlefield.ru too, but evidently it's you that posted it on the WAB answering my question the first time getting old before my time, not good.
Vasilyi Fofanov on tank net assert that the late IS-2 M44's glacis armor, though, had varaible thickness from 90mm-110mm but never 120mm. The better steel quality, the thinner the plate. Maybe it's a concious weight saving measure.
I would be interested to see a history of Soviet war time metallurgy.All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
-Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.
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Originally posted by Triple C View PostFor a breathrough tank, the late war IS-2 M44 was a deadly design. It certainly deserves to be on the list.
By late 44 / early 45 german metallurgy was suffering from a chronic shortage of rare metals reducing not only the quality of alloys used in they're tanks but also the number of APCR rounds available.
The Is-2 tank was exposed needlessly by Zhukov during the Berlin street fighting ( i don't know if it was overconfident in the tank or eager to finish the fighting , maybe both ) bearing the brunt of german infantry HEAT weapons.
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Originally posted by Andrey Egorov View PostTalking about line breaching tanks one should keep in mind T-35 and especially KV-2.
Originally posted by S-2 View PostAs for AP- at what point? A 152mm HE blast to the front armor of ANY tank then would ruin it's day. The barrel and optics would be particularly vulnerable. So too the tracks. A firepower kill and mobility kill equal a total tank kill, even without penetration. Anti-armor certainly wouldn't have been this vehicle's primary mission.
Reinforced concrete aside, this weapon would have been a god-send to any infantry battalion commander heavily engaged attacking a complex of defensive earthen, log-reinforced entrenchments. BTW, that's what you'd commonly find back in the day for a hasty or semi-prepared defensive network. Likewise, in urban battle, brick and mortar wouldn't tolerate 152mm HE fire very long.
36 152mm HE shells is an awful lot of attention to discretely apply to most point targets.
It was never used in this role...
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Originally posted by Triple C View PostLet's see if this can be kepting going... unlike the disappointing short warLove all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.
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Originally posted by Triple C View PostLet's see if this can be kepting going... unlike the disappointing short war
Bugs,
I have never been a big fan of the Tiger B. Too undependable, even by German standards it was a plodding machine. The Russians captured an example and shot the hell out of it with different types of tank rounds. They found 122 hit at the edges of the weld seams would tear the plating open, and massive spalling was recorded found all over the tank with non-pepentrating hits.
Tiger Es were technically inferior to late war IS-2s. The earier Joseph Stalin tanks had a "step" like chasis that almost appears to be an immitation of the superstructure/hull set up on German tanks. It was 120mm of not so well sloped armor on top of thinner, IIRC well sloped 60mm armor. This type was vulnerable to 88mm L/56 guns. I suspect that was what Gross Deutland ran into as they reported they could neutralize the IS-2 at the range of about 1,100 meters but Russian fire at longer ranges could knoch the Tigers out. That encounter was sufficient to convince Hasso von Manteuffel that the IS-2 "was the best tank of the war".
Late production IS-2 has 90mm-110mm of one-piece face plate sloped at 60 degrees, thickness depending on from which factory it was manufactured. The 90mm hulls were made with better cast steel plate. This model, according to German estimates, could not be penetrated by the Tiger E's weaponry even at 100 meters. The Panther's more powerful 75mm L/70 could penetrate IS-2 armor at 700 meters, again according to German sources. The IS-2's 122mm could return the favor at 1,000 meters. For a breathrough tank, the late war IS-2 M44 was a deadly design. It certainly deserves to be on the list."The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man
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This question is not very clear ,WW2 started at different times for some countries , tanks went through an accelerated evolution and "peaked " then became somewhat obsolete
is the best tank the , punchier , best armored , best against AT weapons ,best range and cross country ability , easiest to manufacture ?
for my money , 1939 the German PZKW 3 was pretty good overall , 1940 the PZKW 4 ruled OK , 1941 definitely the T34 ,1942 also the T34 , in North Africa the Sherman was the best the British had , but that's not saying much , 1943 the T34 was showing its age the up-gunned PZKW 4 was really a problem , 1944 the Panther , 1945 the panther
the Sherman was OK , but its best use was as infantry support ,
the Tiger was a wonderful machine but was slow , very thirsty , and never could be made in sufficient number
the Soviet JS2 was quite impressive but came late ansd was designated as a breakthrough tank for assaulting fortified position
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Randwick, welcome aboard. If you haven't already done so I suggest you check out the Achtung Panzer and Armchair General forums/websites for info on these topics. For the rest there might shortly be some 'necro post' i.e. resurrected old thread comments incoming.
FYI - I agree with you about the question - asking 'which is the best' without first defining the parameters of the questions is usually a bit pointless. You start arguments rather than getting precise answers.
For the rest, in general I agree with your assessment of the types you named. Although I think it's important to to note the difference between technical superiority and availability. There's no point in designing the best weapon system in the world if it's so complex and hard to produce that few, if any arrive at the front lines. Far better to have to have an 'OK/will do' system widely available in large numbers.
I suggest you come up with a new question on the topic that interests you and post - I'm sure you will get responses from some very knowledgeable WAB members.
P.S. I don't include myself in that number.Last edited by Monash; 06 Jun 16,, 09:35.If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.
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Randwick
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And with that, we'll close out this thread and let it fade away...“He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”
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