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  • Originally posted by dalem
    Oh I understand completely - we may be using different arguments but it boils down to this simple comparison: Your original statement was that the Panther was invulnerable to 37mm AP rounds fired into its flank from under 500 meters range.
    Nope. My original statement was that the Panther G was immune to 37mm fire from the flanks, and after looking at the numbers, it most certainly is.


    Originally posted by dalem
    My original statement was that it was not. Now we have spiraled into a situation where you are forcing the maximum RHA numbers of the latest model Panther
    NO DALEM, I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PANTHER G ALL ALONG. Go back to my first post(post #15).........what SPECIFIC TANK do i ID as the best of the war?

    Panther, or PANTHER G?

    Originally posted by dalem
    (ignoring the almost vertical turret sides and the truly vertical chassis sidewalls) against the median numbers available for the 37mm AP, which 1 source says was 54mm of RHA at 30deg and the other 53mm etc.


    Do those turret sides look 'almost vertical' to you?

    Nitwit...


    Originally posted by dalem
    Think of it this way - when a penetration stat says outright that it is capable of penetrating 50mm of RHA at an incidence of 30 degrees, then when it hits a 40mm thick piece of RHA sloped at 30 degrees, it's going through (more than likely).
    And gee Dalem, there is NO PART of the Panther G's flanks that is only 40mm thick. NONE. Nowhere.

    Originally posted by dalem
    You don't get to apply the RHAe because it's already been taken into account in the original AP penetration number. Your argument would be COMPLETELY valid if the penetration stat referred to 50mm of regular armor plate at 30 degrees. But not in our current discussion.
    No, the RHAe has NOT been taken into account for the 37mm AP round in those charts or it WOULD NOT still have a 30 degree impact qualifier.

    It would merely have a penetration number against a flat plate, and then from there you can simply reduce the penetration by 50% for each 30 degrees of sloping. Just like they rate modern munitions.

    Originally posted by dalem
    By the simple numbers, the Panther was vulnerable to penetrations from the flank by 37mm AP at ranges under 500m. I have no data regarding and I've made no claims as to how that vulnerability might translate into the ability to be actually damaged or KOd by such a round - and I've already made allusions to that fact.

    -dale
    The Panther A was vulnerable dalem, and i've conceded that fact in at least THREE DIFFERENT POSTS NOW.

    But again, i SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED THE PANTHER G IN MY VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD, AND IN EVERY POST SINCE UNLESS I SPECIFICALLY MENTION A MODEL(and many times i did), IT IS THE G MODEL TANK I AM REFERRING TO.

    When you talk of what an Abrams is capable of, and dont add the A1 or A2, do you assume i mean the first obsolete model, or the latest greatest model?

    Oh, right........we mean the latest, greatest model when we just say "abrams".

    Why do i get the feeling you've been purposely poking me with a stick in this whole thread?
    Last edited by Bill; 22 Feb 06,, 23:20.

    Comment


    • POST #15 of this thread- my FIRST POST

      Originally posted by M21Sniper

      The Panther G is my pick as best overall tank of the war. Speed, mobility, firepower, protection. The Panther G had it all.
      Panther G dalem.............Panther G

      It is YOUR lack of attention to detail that got his here dude. I specified G from the very start.

      But hey.......whatever. I still like you even if you have a problem identifying the 7th letter of the alphabet at times. :)
      Last edited by Bill; 22 Feb 06,, 23:20.

      Comment


      • Judging by the "vertical turret side armor" comment from dalem, sir, you may have confused the Panther with Tiger I.

        Panther and King Tiger both have slanted turret sides, with Panther being more so, I believe. Tiger I has vertical turret sides.
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

        Comment


        • Panther

          Panther

          Damn, this thing just looks mean.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by gunnut; 22 Feb 06,, 23:45.
          "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

          Comment


          • Tiger I
            Attached Files
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • King Tiger
              Attached Files
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

              Comment


              • No, he was not confused. He knows the difference, so do I, and the comment was about the HULL, not the turret.

                The turret, by the way, need not have ANY slope to it, depending on aspect, but of course, it may have even MORE, too, for the same reason.

                Panther: great tank, maybe the best one to be in when the steel is on it's way to your particular vehicle. But it's weak spot is the side armor.

                37mm AT gun: An under-powered but still useful weapon, that achieves it's relatively high performance (for it's caliber) by substituting mass with velocity of the shot.

                Under unhoped-for conditions, the 37mm COULD penetrate a Panther's turret side, or it's hull side.

                I'm no nitwit. Neither is dalem.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                  Why do i get the feeling you've been purposely poking me with a stick in this whole thread?
                  ... .........
                  LMAO

                  Comment


                  • A 37mm round could proably penetrate the Panther's side armor in almost flukish circumstances but if I was in a Panther I'd feel pretty safe up against a gaggle of Stuarts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bluesman
                      No, he was not confused. He knows the difference, so do I, and the comment was about the HULL, not the turret.
                      Apparently you should read the comment again Top. Cause he said Hull AND turret.

                      And regardless, BOTH are sloped(see the pix gunnut just posted above, they clearly show the slope on both the turret AND hull of the Panther, and the Panther G had even more pronounced sloping, that model looks like an A to me)


                      Originally posted by Bluesman
                      Under unhoped-for conditions, the 37mm COULD penetrate a Panther's turret side, or it's hull side.
                      An early Panther D yes, a Panther G, no. It would come up about 14mm short of an even partial breeching penetration even under ideal conditions.

                      Originally posted by Bluesman
                      I'm no nitwit. Neither is dalem.
                      No, but he sure was being very anal when he knew damned right well i was referring to the Panther G all along. I only mentioned that model BY NAME about 20 friggin' times in this thread...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                        Do those turret sides look 'almost vertical' to you?
                        Yes, they do.

                        And gee Dalem, there is NO PART of the Panther G's flanks that is only 40mm thick. NONE. Nowhere.
                        What is the thickness of the chassis/lower hull of the G?

                        No, the RHAe has NOT been taken into account for the 37mm AP round in those charts or it WOULD NOT still have a 30 degree impact qualifier.
                        So what does the following mean to YOU?

                        U.S. ARMY WEAPONS CAPABILITY AGAINST ROLLED HOMOGENEOUS STEEL ARMOR AT 30 DEGREES OBLIQUITY, Penetration in mm in direction of travel, range in meters WEAPON TYPE MUNITION TYPE Range 100m Range 500m Range 1000m Range 1500m Range 2000m Reference
                        20mm GUN AN-M2 AP-M95 22mm 18mm 13mm 8mm 7mm 4
                        37MM M6 GUN M51AP 63mm 54mm 45mm 37mm - 2
                        37mm GUN M6 Squeeze Bore Tungsten Carbide 118mm 85mm 59mm 46mm - 3
                        75MM GUN AP-T 87mm 73mm 65mm 54mm 45mm 1
                        75MM GUN APCR-T 135mm 115mm 95mm 76mm 60mm 1


                        References

                        1. "Stuart, A History of the American Light Tank", Hunnicutt, Presidio, 1992.

                        2. "Stuart, U.S. Light Tanks in Action", Squadron/Signal Publications, Number 18, 1979.


                        3. "Fire and Movement", The Tank Museum at Bovington, Dorset, England 1975.


                        4. "Ballistic Data Performance of Ammunition", TM9-1907, Department of the Army, July 1948.
                        But again, i SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED THE PANTHER G IN MY VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD, AND IN EVERY POST SINCE UNLESS I SPECIFICALLY MENTION A MODEL(and many times i did), IT IS THE G MODEL TANK I AM REFERRING TO.
                        That's not the way writing in English really works, you know. ;)

                        Why do i get the feeling you've been purposely poking me with a stick in this whole thread?
                        Because you don't want to admit that you're spending all this effort arguing a point that you've never owned, against a guy who's already voted the Panther (ausf unspecified) as the best overall tank in WWII? :)

                        -dale

                        Comment


                        • Yep, i see you've been being cute and playing semantics.

                          You knew full well i meant the G Mr 'the english language dont work that way'.

                          You'll be wasting no more of my time on this thread.

                          PS, if those turret sides look almost vertical to you you're smoking the good stuff.

                          PSS:I WAS wrong here, but it is quite irrelevant:

                          " And gee Dalem, there is NO PART of the Panther G's flanks that is only 40mm thick. NONE. Nowhere."

                          The reason it is irrelevant is because the part that is listed as 40mm thick for the G model is also listed as being sloped at 90 degrees.
                          Which of course means that it would be impossible to hit with direct fire from the same elevation.

                          Oh, and i have no idea what your chart says because you were too lazy to line it up right, and well............that's not how charts work.
                          Last edited by Bill; 23 Feb 06,, 19:27.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                            Yep, i see you've been being cute and playing semantics.

                            You knew full well i meant the G Mr 'the english language dont work that way'.
                            Nope.

                            You'll be wasting no more of my time on this thread.

                            PS, if those turret sides look almost vertical to you you're smoking the good stuff.

                            PSS:I WAS wrong here, but it is quite irrelevant:

                            " And gee Dalem, there is NO PART of the Panther G's flanks that is only 40mm thick. NONE. Nowhere."

                            The reason it is irrelevant is because the part that is listed as 40mm thick for the G model is also listed as being sloped at 90 degrees.
                            Which of course means that it would be impossible to hit with direct fire from the same elevation.

                            Oh, and i have no idea what your chart says because you were too lazy to line it up right, and well............that's not how charts work.
                            The important part is the part I highlighted - the text about the RHA.

                            Anyway, what's the thickness of the straight side hull chassis armor on your G model?

                            -dale

                            Comment


                            • "Nope."

                              So then you're a moron.

                              I'm done here. I've posted my stats, you've posted yours, people are free to draw their own conclusions.

                              You have been purposely being cutsie and poking me with a stick in this whole thread(or you are an innatentive moron, which i know to be false), and i do not appreciate it.

                              PS: You don't understand your own chart.

                              Maybe you really are a Moron...
                              Last edited by Bill; 23 Feb 06,, 23:03.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                                ...You have been purposely being cutsie and poking me with a stick in this whole thread(or you are an innatentive moron, which i know to be false), and i do not appreciate it...
                                LMAOWTIME
                                Dale..... :tryinng to take oxygen:....... if this is the case..........stop....

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