Originally posted by sparten
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Originally posted by dalemHonestly Snipe, you're reaching. But if you want to go to bed tonight thinking that Panthers were invulnerable to 37mm AP fired into the side armor at under 500m, then be my guest. I've done all the reasonable research one can expect via the Web, and obviously none of that is getting through to you.
I swear it's like you took a lesson from lurker on debating style though. And yeah I know - that's not a compliment.
-dale
You silly bastahge(hehehehe), i JUST POSTED THE ARMOR RATINGS FOR THE PANTHER G IN MY LAST POST.
"Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°
Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40&16mm@0°
Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65°(approx. RHA equiv: 95mm) rear- 45mm@65°
top- 16mm@0-6°
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/data/pantherg.htm"
You are on CRACK if you think that 37mm with 54mm/30deg@500 meters will penetrate ANY of those areas listed above in bold.
Hell, i don't even know if the figure you supplied is accurate(i suspect it is a bit optomistic), and it doesn't even delve into the expected riccochet % rate at such and such range and such and such deflection.
I am telling you flat out that at 500 meters against the heavily sloped side armor of the Panther G most 37mm AP rounds would simply riccochet away, let alone being stopped by the Panther Gs armor.
NOTE: remember that every 30 deg of sloping is equivelant to a 50% increase in actual armor thickness.Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 20:27.
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Originally posted by M21SniperI'm reaching?
You silly bastahge(hehehehe), i JUST POSTED THE ARMOR RATINGS FOR THE PANTHER G IN MY LAST POST.
"Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90°(approx. RHA equiv: 120mm) rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°
Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40&16mm@0°
Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65°(approx. RHA equiv: 95mm) rear- 45mm@65°
top- 16mm@0-6°
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/data/pantherg.htm"
You are on CRACK if you think that 37mm with 54mm/30deg@500 meters will penetrate ANY of those areas listed above.
Hell, i don't even know if the figure you supplied is accurate(i suspect it is a bit optomistic), and it doesn't even delve into the expected riccochet % rate at such and such range and such and such deflection.
I am telling you flat out that at 500 meters against the heavily sloped armor of the Panther G most 37mm AP rounds would simply riccochet away.
Your claims about the zook and 2 lbr, which at first were all-encompassing, are now magically focused solely on the Panther. I'm not a telepath.
Anyway, I asked some buddies and they pointed me to here
which seems adequately-sourced, and it has a value of 53mm at 30 degrees. And 53 is still a bigger number than 45, 40, and 50.
Are we done yet?
-dale
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Originally posted by dalemAre we done yet?
-dale
If you weren't, you'd realize that 54mm penetration against a 30 deg sloped plate(such as the 37mm AP can achieve) IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to penetrate a 45mm plate sloped at 65 degrees.
IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO GOOD ENOUGH.
"Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90°(approx. RHA equiv: 120mm) rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°
Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40&16mm@0°
Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65°(approx. RHA equiv: 95mm) rear- 45mm@65°
And as far as you being telepathic, i have been talking about the Panther all along, therefore, i find it no stretch to expect that one reading my posts would understand that when i brought up the 2lb and Bazooka being inneffective i meant it against the Panther(or at the least against the 'heavies').
HELL, TROUNG SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED THIS A FEW PAGES BACK!
Now DALEM, look at the rha equivelancy numbers in red, and tell me, will a 37mm AP come even close to penetrating any of them?
The answer, is no.Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 21:40.
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This is what I found while reading on tank battles. The King Tiger was tested at Kubinka center being shot from all sides.
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...id=123&lang=en
Second is about how these King Tigers were penetrated by T-34-85 from 400m into side armor by Lt. Oskin.
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...mid=88&lang=en
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Originally posted by GarryThis is what I found while reading on tank battles. The King Tiger was tested at Kubinka center being shot from all sides.
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...id=123&lang=en
Second is about how these King Tigers were penetrated by T-34-85 from 400m into side armor by Lt. Oskin.
http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...mid=88&lang=en
Thanx for the links man.
NOTE: The Soviet 100mm and 130mm guns were VERY powerful Hv guns, and both could threaten a Panther from the front out beyond 1000 meters. I completely overlooked those two earlier, though both were not exactly commonly found on the battlefield(especially the 130mm gun). The 100mm gun was used to excellent effect on the ISU-100 TD.Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 21:39.
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Originally posted by M21SniperMy research last night directly refutes that claim.
Apparently, it was not until the last few months of the war that this became an issue.
However, BOTH the Sherman and T-34 had serious armor casting and welding flaws. The Sherman's were eventually all fixed, apparently not so for the T-34."The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man
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Originally posted by leibstandarte10German armor quality was probably the highest in the world until the last months of the war.
late war King Tigers appear to have especially suffered from woefully inadequate armor and welding.
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So steer me back to the path of Righteousness, Snipe.
I had no idea that the RHAe of the Panther side armor was > 1.0 at 30degrees.
And I had no idea that a projectile rated to pass through 54mm of RHA at 30 degrees of incidence will always fail to pass through 50mm of RHA at 30degrees of incidence. ;)
-dale
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Originally posted by dalemSo steer me back to the path of Righteousness, Snipe.
I had no idea that the RHAe of the Panther side armor was > 1.0 at 30degrees.
And I had no idea that a projectile rated to pass through 54mm of RHA at 30 degrees of incidence will always fail to pass through 50mm of RHA at 30degrees of incidence. ;)
-dale
I posted the RHA equivelancy of each of the Panther Gs side armor plates.
(in red)
Again.... every 30 degrees of sloping effectively increases armor thickness by 50%.
A 37mm round @ 500 meters can penetrate a max of 54mm of armor(rha?) of 30 degree sloped armor (a maximum RHAe penetration of 81mm).
That's it dude......max.
Therefore, whatever it is that possesses you to think that 81mm is good enough to penetrate a 95mm RHAe plate(the weakest protection on a Panther G's flanks).........beyond me.
95 minus 81 does not equal penentration.
Or are you being cute and trying to count partial pens(ie where the plate is intact but heavily gouged)?
Eh.......whatever, think what you want, all alone on your island. The isle of Dale. Heh....Last edited by Bill; 22 Feb 06,, 15:55.
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Actually, I'm following him, and I think he's right.
Will we find any historical refs of it ever happening in the field? Doubt it; no 37mm-armed crew will even try to close with and engage a heavy. Not if they've got a side shot, not if they think they've got a covered route to a decent try at it, NEVER. Not their role, suicidal if everything isn't just right, and it never is.
But for us wargamers that will try that kind of stoopid crap, because there's no REAL cost...it can be done. With our God's eye view of the field, with our fearless crew, with our complete disregard of doctrine, and with our turn-limited and completely artificial objectives...we'll use what we've got in order to do what we have to do to win.
A 37mm AP round from inside 500 meters upside that cats' flank, and you walk away a winnah. Because the data is taken from penetration tables, and the numbers don't lie, as I believe dalem has already noted.Last edited by Bluesman; 22 Feb 06,, 19:19.
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Originally posted by M21SniperDo you even understand what we're talking about? You are talking in such oddities that i am seriously curious.
I posted the RHA equivelancy of each of the Panther Gs side armor plates.
(in red)
Again.... every 30 degrees of sloping effectively increases armor thickness by 50%.
A 37mm round @ 500 meters can penetrate a max of 54mm of armor(rha?) of 30 degree sloped armor (a maximum RHAe penetration of 81mm).
That's it dude......max.
Therefore, whatever it is that possesses you to think that 81mm is good enough to penetrate a 95mm RHAe plate(the weakest protection on a Panther G's flanks).........beyond me.
95 minus 81 does not equal penentration.
Or are you being cute and trying to count partial pens(ie where the plate is intact but heavily gouged)?
Eh.......whatever, think what you want, all alone on your island. The isle of Dale. Heh....
Think of it this way - when a penetration stat says outright that it is capable of penetrating 50mm of RHA at an incidence of 30 degrees, then when it hits a 40mm thick piece of RHA sloped at 30 degrees, it's going through (more than likely). You don't get to apply the RHAe because it's already been taken into account in the original AP penetration number. Your argument would be COMPLETELY valid if the penetration stat referred to 50mm of regular armor plate at 30 degrees. But not in our current discussion.
By the simple numbers, the Panther was vulnerable to penetrations from the flank by 37mm AP at ranges under 500m. I have no data regarding and I've made no claims as to how that vulnerability might translate into the ability to be actually damaged or KOd by such a round - and I've already made allusions to that fact.
-dale
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Originally posted by BluesmanActually, I'm following him, and I think he's right.
Will we find any historical refs of it ever happening in the field? Doubt it; no 37mm-armed crew will even try to close with and engage a heavy. Not if they've got a side shot, not if they think they've got a covered route to a decent try at it, NEVER. Not their role, suicidal if everything isn't just right, and it never is.
Originally posted by BluesmanA 37mm AP round from inside 500 meters upside that cats' flank, and you walk away a winnah. Because the data is taken from penetration tables, and the numbers don't lie, as I believe dalem has already noted.
No, the numbers dont like, and no, 81mm max penetration aint getting you no joy against a tank whose lightest flank armor is the equivelant to 95mm thick such as is the case with the Panther G.Last edited by Bill; 23 Feb 06,, 01:07.
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