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  • Originally posted by sparten
    They ran like the devil away from him and he decided let them! Which gun they used? Well it was probably a British one since they knew how to use it, but then they had been in Russia over a month by that time.
    It was proably a UK 2lb'er or 6lb'er AT gun.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dalem
      Honestly Snipe, you're reaching. But if you want to go to bed tonight thinking that Panthers were invulnerable to 37mm AP fired into the side armor at under 500m, then be my guest. I've done all the reasonable research one can expect via the Web, and obviously none of that is getting through to you.

      I swear it's like you took a lesson from lurker on debating style though. And yeah I know - that's not a compliment.

      -dale
      I'm reaching?

      You silly bastahge(hehehehe), i JUST POSTED THE ARMOR RATINGS FOR THE PANTHER G IN MY LAST POST.


      "Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°

      Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40&16mm@0°

      Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65°(approx. RHA equiv: 95mm) rear- 45mm@65°
      top- 16mm@0-6°
      http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/data/pantherg.htm"

      You are on CRACK if you think that 37mm with 54mm/30deg@500 meters will penetrate ANY of those areas listed above in bold.

      Hell, i don't even know if the figure you supplied is accurate(i suspect it is a bit optomistic), and it doesn't even delve into the expected riccochet % rate at such and such range and such and such deflection.

      I am telling you flat out that at 500 meters against the heavily sloped side armor of the Panther G most 37mm AP rounds would simply riccochet away, let alone being stopped by the Panther Gs armor.

      NOTE: remember that every 30 deg of sloping is equivelant to a 50% increase in actual armor thickness.
      Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 20:27.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by M21Sniper
        I'm reaching?

        You silly bastahge(hehehehe), i JUST POSTED THE ARMOR RATINGS FOR THE PANTHER G IN MY LAST POST.


        "Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90°(approx. RHA equiv: 120mm) rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°

        Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40&16mm@0°

        Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65°(approx. RHA equiv: 95mm) rear- 45mm@65°
        top- 16mm@0-6°
        http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/data/pantherg.htm"

        You are on CRACK if you think that 37mm with 54mm/30deg@500 meters will penetrate ANY of those areas listed above.

        Hell, i don't even know if the figure you supplied is accurate(i suspect it is a bit optomistic), and it doesn't even delve into the expected riccochet % rate at such and such range and such and such deflection.

        I am telling you flat out that at 500 meters against the heavily sloped armor of the Panther G most 37mm AP rounds would simply riccochet away.
        Snipe. My number of 54mm is bigger than all of your numbers for side armor of the Panther. This means that the round will penetrate to some degree. A penetrating round equates to vulnerability of the armored target, yes? My number of 54mm came from a table on the web with clear sourcing even unto the vaunted TM-1907, which I wish I could find online. But clearly YOUR numbers are superior.

        Your claims about the zook and 2 lbr, which at first were all-encompassing, are now magically focused solely on the Panther. I'm not a telepath.

        Anyway, I asked some buddies and they pointed me to here

        which seems adequately-sourced, and it has a value of 53mm at 30 degrees. And 53 is still a bigger number than 45, 40, and 50.

        Are we done yet?

        -dale

        Comment


        • Originally posted by dalem
          Are we done yet?

          -dale
          Yes, we are done, because apparently you are completely ignorant to the effect of sloping on armor ratings. That's why i specifically included an estimate- a rough one- of the RHA EQUIVELANCY rating for the Panther G.

          If you weren't, you'd realize that 54mm penetration against a 30 deg sloped plate(such as the 37mm AP can achieve) IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to penetrate a 45mm plate sloped at 65 degrees.

          IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO GOOD ENOUGH.

          "Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90°(approx. RHA equiv: 120mm) rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°

          Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60°(approx. RHA equiv: 100mm) rear- 40&16mm@0°

          Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65°(approx. RHA equiv: 95mm) rear- 45mm@65°

          And as far as you being telepathic, i have been talking about the Panther all along, therefore, i find it no stretch to expect that one reading my posts would understand that when i brought up the 2lb and Bazooka being inneffective i meant it against the Panther(or at the least against the 'heavies').
          HELL, TROUNG SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSED THIS A FEW PAGES BACK!

          Now DALEM, look at the rha equivelancy numbers in red, and tell me, will a 37mm AP come even close to penetrating any of them?

          The answer, is no.
          Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 21:40.

          Comment


          • This is what I found while reading on tank battles. The King Tiger was tested at Kubinka center being shot from all sides.

            http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...id=123&lang=en

            Second is about how these King Tigers were penetrated by T-34-85 from 400m into side armor by Lt. Oskin.

            http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...mid=88&lang=en

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Garry
              This is what I found while reading on tank battles. The King Tiger was tested at Kubinka center being shot from all sides.

              http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...id=123&lang=en

              Second is about how these King Tigers were penetrated by T-34-85 from 400m into side armor by Lt. Oskin.

              http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?...mid=88&lang=en
              I have no problems believing a 85mm could punch into a koenig tigers side at 400m. Whether or not it did so regularly or not, i don't know.

              Thanx for the links man.

              NOTE: The Soviet 100mm and 130mm guns were VERY powerful Hv guns, and both could threaten a Panther from the front out beyond 1000 meters. I completely overlooked those two earlier, though both were not exactly commonly found on the battlefield(especially the 130mm gun). The 100mm gun was used to excellent effect on the ISU-100 TD.
              Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 21:39.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                My research last night directly refutes that claim.

                Apparently, it was not until the last few months of the war that this became an issue.

                However, BOTH the Sherman and T-34 had serious armor casting and welding flaws. The Sherman's were eventually all fixed, apparently not so for the T-34.
                German armor quality was probably the highest in the world until the last months of the war.
                "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

                Comment


                • Originally posted by leibstandarte10
                  German armor quality was probably the highest in the world until the last months of the war.
                  According to almost all the stuff i was readiing last night, that is largely correct until very late in the war when they started running out of certain crucial raw materials.

                  late war King Tigers appear to have especially suffered from woefully inadequate armor and welding.

                  Comment


                  • Certainly the result of lack of quality steel and poor workmanship.
                    "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by leibstandarte10
                      Certainly the result of lack of quality steel and poor workmanship.
                      So it would seem.

                      Comment


                      • So steer me back to the path of Righteousness, Snipe.

                        I had no idea that the RHAe of the Panther side armor was > 1.0 at 30degrees.

                        And I had no idea that a projectile rated to pass through 54mm of RHA at 30 degrees of incidence will always fail to pass through 50mm of RHA at 30degrees of incidence. ;)

                        -dale

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dalem
                          So steer me back to the path of Righteousness, Snipe.

                          I had no idea that the RHAe of the Panther side armor was > 1.0 at 30degrees.

                          And I had no idea that a projectile rated to pass through 54mm of RHA at 30 degrees of incidence will always fail to pass through 50mm of RHA at 30degrees of incidence. ;)

                          -dale
                          Do you even understand what we're talking about? You are talking in such oddities that i am seriously curious.

                          I posted the RHA equivelancy of each of the Panther Gs side armor plates.
                          (in red)

                          Again.... every 30 degrees of sloping effectively increases armor thickness by 50%.
                          A 37mm round @ 500 meters can penetrate a max of 54mm of armor(rha?) of 30 degree sloped armor (a maximum RHAe penetration of 81mm).

                          That's it dude......max.

                          Therefore, whatever it is that possesses you to think that 81mm is good enough to penetrate a 95mm RHAe plate(the weakest protection on a Panther G's flanks).........beyond me.

                          95 minus 81 does not equal penentration.

                          Or are you being cute and trying to count partial pens(ie where the plate is intact but heavily gouged)?

                          Eh.......whatever, think what you want, all alone on your island. The isle of Dale. Heh....
                          Last edited by Bill; 22 Feb 06,, 15:55.

                          Comment


                          • Actually, I'm following him, and I think he's right.

                            Will we find any historical refs of it ever happening in the field? Doubt it; no 37mm-armed crew will even try to close with and engage a heavy. Not if they've got a side shot, not if they think they've got a covered route to a decent try at it, NEVER. Not their role, suicidal if everything isn't just right, and it never is.

                            But for us wargamers that will try that kind of stoopid crap, because there's no REAL cost...it can be done. With our God's eye view of the field, with our fearless crew, with our complete disregard of doctrine, and with our turn-limited and completely artificial objectives...we'll use what we've got in order to do what we have to do to win.

                            A 37mm AP round from inside 500 meters upside that cats' flank, and you walk away a winnah. Because the data is taken from penetration tables, and the numbers don't lie, as I believe dalem has already noted.
                            Last edited by Bluesman; 22 Feb 06,, 19:19.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              Do you even understand what we're talking about? You are talking in such oddities that i am seriously curious.

                              I posted the RHA equivelancy of each of the Panther Gs side armor plates.
                              (in red)

                              Again.... every 30 degrees of sloping effectively increases armor thickness by 50%.
                              A 37mm round @ 500 meters can penetrate a max of 54mm of armor(rha?) of 30 degree sloped armor (a maximum RHAe penetration of 81mm).

                              That's it dude......max.

                              Therefore, whatever it is that possesses you to think that 81mm is good enough to penetrate a 95mm RHAe plate(the weakest protection on a Panther G's flanks).........beyond me.

                              95 minus 81 does not equal penentration.

                              Or are you being cute and trying to count partial pens(ie where the plate is intact but heavily gouged)?

                              Eh.......whatever, think what you want, all alone on your island. The isle of Dale. Heh....
                              Oh I understand completely - we may be using different arguments but it boils down to this simple comparison: Your original statement was that the Panther was invulnerable to 37mm AP rounds fired into its flank from under 500 meters range. My original statement was that it was not. Now we have spiraled into a situation where you are forcing the maximum RHA numbers of the latest model Panther (ignoring the almost vertical turret sides and the truly vertical chassis sidewalls) against the median numbers available for the 37mm AP, which 1 source says was 54mm of RHA at 30deg and the other 53mm etc.

                              Think of it this way - when a penetration stat says outright that it is capable of penetrating 50mm of RHA at an incidence of 30 degrees, then when it hits a 40mm thick piece of RHA sloped at 30 degrees, it's going through (more than likely). You don't get to apply the RHAe because it's already been taken into account in the original AP penetration number. Your argument would be COMPLETELY valid if the penetration stat referred to 50mm of regular armor plate at 30 degrees. But not in our current discussion.

                              By the simple numbers, the Panther was vulnerable to penetrations from the flank by 37mm AP at ranges under 500m. I have no data regarding and I've made no claims as to how that vulnerability might translate into the ability to be actually damaged or KOd by such a round - and I've already made allusions to that fact.

                              -dale

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bluesman
                                Actually, I'm following him, and I think he's right.

                                Will we find any historical refs of it ever happening in the field? Doubt it; no 37mm-armed crew will even try to close with and engage a heavy. Not if they've got a side shot, not if they think they've got a covered route to a decent try at it, NEVER. Not their role, suicidal if everything isn't just right, and it never is.
                                EXACTLY!!!! Even against a Panther A it would have to be an almost perfect perpindicular shot that found it's way past the road wheels and hit the small exposed areas of the lower hull, and they'd need LOS, which in many cases they'd be unable to achieve if there is any intervening elevated terrain at all. Against a Panther D, it would definitely penetrate the lower hull, but again..that's probably the hardest part of the tank to hit because of the wheels and intervening terrain) In the real world, no one would ever even try to engage a Panther with a 37mm gun if they had any goddamned choice in the matter at all, flanks or no flanks!(except in very close terrain against the rear of the vehicle, in which case, a 37mm AT gun would really be the least of the Panthers concerns)

                                Originally posted by Bluesman
                                A 37mm AP round from inside 500 meters upside that cats' flank, and you walk away a winnah. Because the data is taken from penetration tables, and the numbers don't lie, as I believe dalem has already noted.

                                No, the numbers dont like, and no, 81mm max penetration aint getting you no joy against a tank whose lightest flank armor is the equivelant to 95mm thick such as is the case with the Panther G.
                                Last edited by Bill; 23 Feb 06,, 01:07.

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