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  • #91
    Originally posted by leibstandarte10
    Trust me, I've read plenty of books on armor battles in WWII. But this situation is just what you're saying it is: hypothetical. Nothing more.
    The billiard-table example is hypothetical, yes.

    -dale

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    • #92
      Originally posted by leibstandarte10
      There are too many variables to really say who would win. Who is attacking, intelligence, terrain, visibility, etc. But in a meeting engagement, in open terrain, where neither side has a tactical advantage, the Panthers would own the Shermans. It might turn out differently if the Shermans are hull-down, lying in wait for an ambush.
      Then it's not a mutual meeting engagement anymore.

      In the scenario i've pointed to for illustrative purposes of which tank is 'better', both forces are advancing, run dead into one another, issue orders and deploy for battle, and fight it out toe to toe, regardless of the terrain set.

      In that battle, the Sherman, or the T-34, any model.....gets owned.
      Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 07:40.

      Comment


      • #93
        It is the team and not the "stars"...
        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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        • #94
          Another thing people are forgetting, during the last two years of the war, the PAnthers and the Tigers were made of inferior metals and often badly cracked or penetrated by even medium velocity guns like the Shermans.
          "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by M21Sniper
            So was I. It is my belief that at 500 meters, the vast majority of 37mm rounds you fired at the side of a Panther would not penetrate. In fact, i would wager that a simple majority of them might very well even riccohchet, doing no damage at all.
            Believe all you want. The penetration tables tell a different story.

            What causes crew fatalities in a tank is spall, and when a medium bore projectile comes tearing into a tank, it makes lots of it(including being spall itself)- no bursting charge required.

            120mm M829A3 APFSDSDU has no burster charge, and is a mere 22.5mm in diameter(IIRC).

            So IF a 37mm got into the Panther turret, it is very likely it WOULD kill or maim most of the crew anyway.
            I'm not discussing the details of what may or may not happen once a round penetrates. You claimed the Panther side armor was immune to the 37mm AP round when the numbers say it was not. What more is there to discuss on that point?

            Which would be consistent with my statement that the only place i could see reliable penetrations at 500m was against the non sloped 40mm lower hull armor. Except that i also explained that a great deal of that weakspot is hidden from view(and protected) by the roadwheels, and would often be masked by intervening terrain.

            And even then, we'd have to have a nice low deflection shot to ensure a complete penetration.
            Again you're arguing against the numbers. The Panther hull side and especially turret side were vulnerable to penetrations by the 37mm AP round at 500m.

            Against Pz Is, IIs, and IIIs!!! HARDLY the same thing as the big Panzers that would be introduced starting with the Pz VI Tiger from 1942 on.
            Even against the PzIV and improved Pz IIIJ the 2lb'er was sorely lacking.

            As i said, it's heyday came against the likes of the Pz IIIJ and older German tanks.

            The Bazooka was quite succesful as a last ditch anti-armor weapon, not neccesarily a last ditch anti-TANK weapon. And if that TANK is one of the German Heavies, you might as well just throw the thing at the tank unless you have an engine grill shot.
            Your claim of universal ineffectiveness of both the 2lbr and the bazooka was a blanket statement with no qualifiers and as such was incorrect. And again as such leads me to question your understanding of the topic at hand. Sorry.

            Well Dalem, i've been posting linked sources throughout.
            Not related to our discussion you haven't.

            If you think they are lacking, have at them. Point out where and why, prove it with numerous corroborating sources of your own, and then we will all be the better off for it because we will have the straight scoop.
            I believe I've done this already, quite handily. More sources are always better of course, but I don't think either one of is arguing about the numbers provided for armor, incidence, range and penetration - instead we are arguing the conclusions reached and reachable from those numbers.

            I am also especially basing them on experience. I've seen a lot of ordnance interact with a lot of things, and IMO, it's just a stretch that a 37mm WWII steel penetrater AP round could penetrate that much sloped plate armor.
            Highly irrelevant to our discussion. The provided values are reached by averaging a range of results - we both know this. Not every 37mm AP round fired would have penetrated to the average thickness listed - some rounds will exceed, and some will fail. The 54mm of RHA penetration at 30degrees listed on that little table are meant to be taken as a reliable estimate of average expected performance. Unless of course I am wrong about how penetration values are generally arrived at - maybe it's the best/worst value instead of the average as I have always believed. I could go dig up some ancient AP/Armor discussion threads we had on the Combat Mission board - pages and pages of the stuff - capped, spaced, face-hardened, base charge, RHA, Brinnell numbers, blah blah blah.

            Those were the days! ;)

            IF indeed it can, it can PRECISELY BECAUSE it has no bursting charge.
            Again, esoteria wrt the contested point.

            -dale

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by M21Sniper
              Your GF is/was one BRAVE AND LUCKY man!

              My GF on my father's side was a tanker in Patton's 8th Army. He never got a scratch. I guess he was lucky too. :)
              Thank you Sniper! He actually got two more later - one in Poland 1944 and one in Prague in 1945. But in this cases that was a cases when they were clearly outnumbering german tankers. His total score was 6 tanks and two fighting vehicles, including one tank and fighting vehicle in 1941. Besides that he cracked under his tracks artillery pieces, trucks, infantry, and even an aircraft on a field!!! He always told that in a bloodbath like the WW II was, the luck was the single most important factor to survive besides training. SO HE WAS LUCKY TO SURVIVE THROUGH THAT WAR..... Especially in Prague. He told that was really bitter fight he had with so many tankers killed AFTER THE WAR WAS ALREADY OVER!!!

              He had 3 tanks through the war. The first he burned himself in 1941 in encirlement, the next T-34 type 42 was destroyed by german anti-tank artillery..... in 1943 and the crew managed to survive. GREAT LUCK. Actually it was double luck as because of this he missed Kursk battle and survived :) the battle where his unit lost many experienced tankers. His last tank T-34-85 had good gun and stronger armor, but lacked speed and maneuvrability of T-34 Type 42. Still he liked it as well and killed two tigers in it. After war he was instructor teaching Chinese, Koreans and Mongolians in vast Mongolian steps.

              Your grand father was probaly also lucky guy! I looked in the google but did not find the history of 8th Patton's army. Where did they fight? Always interested to read!

              Comment


              • #97
                Great man your Grand Father Garry!
                My Grand Uncle was in the British Indian Army, but he spent the better part of the war seconded to the British Army. He went to the Soviet Union in 1943 after the surrender of the Afrika Corps to help train the Russians in Anti Tank tactics esp against the new Tigers (he and a few others) and they were still around during Kursk. At one point there observation post came under attack by an Elefant TD. He told me he had an anti Tank gun near by which some Russian soldier had left. They picked it up and fired, it bounced off the frontal armour!
                "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by leibstandarte10
                  I'm sorry Garry, but I'm afraid that a single T-34 vs. a single Tiger or Panther has no chance against either in a meeting engagement. I agree with Snipe in this discussion. Due to (generally) higher crew training and battle experience, and superior equipment, I think a Panther G company would annihilate a T34 or Sherman battalion.
                  In general T-34 was not a platform to fight tigers. And for many of T-34 crews the meeting with Tiger was deadly.... its gun could kille them in front from long distance. And they did kill a lot of T-34s.

                  Nonetheless I remember the historical fact I read a year ago - despite being outclassed T-34 is responsible for killing VAST majority of Tigers ever produced by Germany. More than 80% of Tigers were killed on Eastern Front. In Russia statistics say that primary killer of tigers were ....... T-34 crews, then infantry..... and only then artillery, heavy tanks and aviation. It was written in the Russian language article by a Gen Major head of Kubinka center.

                  So they did it despite being outclassed... there were many other T-34 crew who did this besides the names I listed above. Despite running a high and deadly risk of meeting a capable heavy tank Soviet middle tankers did face up tigers and ALLTOGEHTER killed most of the tigers Germany had ever produced.

                  And from reading stories of the people above I understood that it was possible..... I posted the story above Hero Lt Nikolay Khitsenko who killed 5 tigers out of 10 facing him while being ALONE!!! Unfortunatelly he and his crew were killed in that battle by remaining tigers, but for this he was awarded HERO the highest honor in Soviet Army.

                  I actually like the story of Lt. Brazhnikov who survived having killed 4 tigers ALONE. Though his tank was destroyed his crew WAS LUCKY TO SURVIVE

                  How he did this? Brazhnikov ambushed a colunm of German tanks alone. Asked for support and start fighting alone. From distance of 300 meters he killed two tanks, changed position and killed one more. Then German tanks turned front to him and locked him in his position between two hills. So he instead of sitting and waiting when they would come and get him from behind he got out fast to open field and was right between two german lines which tried to block him. Germans could not shoot him as they could hit their comrades if missed. He was manuevring between this two lines on fast speed and killed one more Tiger before a one of German tankers finally got precise at him. His tank was burned but crew evacuated and survived - the power of tiger's gun was excessive for T-34 on such a close range..... the shell went through engine compartment and exited hull from other side! Brazhnikov's crew managed to escape from burning tank. German tanks pulled back when support of heavy Soviet tanks showed up......

                  This demonstrates that T-34 on short range of 300m could penetrate side armor of the Tiger and Panther. Moreover my grandfather told that tiger's turret has slow rotation speed as it was very heavy. Hence with its higher speed and manuvrability experienced T-34 had some chance to escape using terrain. Though this did not work well if range was long..... in general it was very dangerous game when you are hiding and running around your enemy... but if you get close then a hunter could become a prey. For many unknown T-34 tankers it did not work that well.......
                  Last edited by Garry; 21 Feb 06,, 16:25.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by sparten
                    Great man your Grand Father Garry!
                    My Grand Uncle was in the British Indian Army, but he spent the better part of the war seconded to the British Army. He went to the Soviet Union in 1943 after the surrender of the Afrika Corps to help train the Russians in Anti Tank tactics esp against the new Tigers (he and a few others) and they were still around during Kursk. At one point there observation post came under attack by an Elefant TD. He told me he had an anti Tank gun near by which some Russian soldier had left. They picked it up and fired, it bounced off the frontal armour!
                    The one must have really strong guts to stay on position when Ferdinand is advancing at you. What happened? How it end up? Was your grandfather using an unfantry mobile antitank gun PTRD-41 which used 14.5mm shells?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Garry
                      The one must have really strong guts to stay on position when Ferdinand is advancing at you. What happened? How it end up? Was your grandfather using an unfantry mobile antitank gun PTRD-41 which used 14.5mm shells?
                      They ran like the devil away from him and he decided let them! Which gun they used? Well it was probably a British one since they knew how to use it, but then they had been in Russia over a month by that time.
                      "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by sparten
                        They ran like the devil away from him and he decided let them! Which gun they used? Well it was probably a British one since they knew how to use it, but then they had been in Russia over a month by that time.
                        Seems to me that luckilly Ferdinand did not have machine gun.... he wouldn't let them go if it was equipped with machine gun!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by sparten
                          Another thing people are forgetting, during the last two years of the war, the PAnthers and the Tigers were made of inferior metals and often badly cracked or penetrated by even medium velocity guns like the Shermans.
                          My research last night directly refutes that claim.

                          Apparently, it was not until the last few months of the war that this became an issue.

                          However, BOTH the Sherman and T-34 had serious armor casting and welding flaws. The Sherman's were eventually all fixed, apparently not so for the T-34.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by dalem
                            Believe all you want. The penetration tables tell a different story.

                            Ah, OK.

                            So then, what % of those projectiles would riccochet, and at what ranges, and what would be the maximum impact deflection at any given range to ensure penetration and not reflection?

                            If your penetration tables don't have that info, they're simply not worth the paper they're printed on.
                            This is why i said i'd like to see the detailed penetration tables for the 37mm AP round.

                            Originally posted by dalem
                            I'm not discussing the details of what may or may not happen once a round penetrates. You claimed the Panther side armor was immune to the 37mm AP round when the numbers say it was not. What more is there to discuss on that point?
                            I looked last night and could not find any single instance of a ground vehicle or infantry fired 37mm round taking out a Panther in actual combat.

                            So perhaps we should discuss why it appears to have never happened.



                            Originally posted by dalem
                            Again you're arguing against the numbers. The Panther hull side and especially turret side were vulnerable to penetrations by the 37mm AP round at 500m.
                            Nope, you posted one internet site and with a comment 'someone somewhere' says it can penetrate that much armor.

                            Further, the amount you post- 54mm @30 degrees, is innsufficient to penetrate the turret or upper side hull of a Panther G under realistic combat conditions. I fully expect that in combat a majority of 37mm rounds would simply riccochet harmlessly off the heavily sloped armor.

                            Again, the Panther A side armor ratings:
                            "Turret sides: 45mm/25 degree slope
                            Upper Hull sides: 50mm/30 degree slope
                            Lower Hull sides: 40mm/0 degree slope"

                            NOW, compare them to the Panther G:

                            Hull Fr- 60mm@35° Side- 40mm@90° rear- 40mm@60° top/bottom- 16-30mm@0°

                            Chassis Fr- 80mm@35° Side- 50mm@60° rear- 40&16mm@0°

                            Turret Fr- 110mm@79° Side- 45mm@65° rear- 45mm@65°
                            top- 16mm@0-6°
                            http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/data/pantherg.htm

                            The flank protection of the Panther G(the tank i have been repeatedly saying was the best tank of the war) is highlighted in bold above. A 37mm AP shell is not going to penetrate any of those areas, under almost ANY realistic combat conditions.

                            The Panther G is a specific model of Panther, it is the one i have referred to since the beginning of this thread, and no, a 37mm round IMO is definitely not going to penetrate the frontal or flank armor unless it's some kind of miracle.



                            [QUOTE=dalem]
                            Your claim of universal ineffectiveness of both the 2lbr and the bazooka was a blanket statement with no qualifiers and as such was incorrect. And again as such leads me to question your understanding of the topic at hand. Sorry.[QUOTE=dalem]

                            We were CLEARLY talking about the Panther wrt the bazooka and 2lber, and against that particular beast, both those weapons ARE particularly inneffective against it.

                            NOWHERE in this thread have we been chatting up Pz I-IIIs, i dont know why all of a sudden you would just assume we would think back to those early war designs when determining how effective the bazooka/2lb gun were agianst a Panther or Tiger.

                            Originally posted by dalem
                            I believe I've done this already, quite handily. More sources are always better of course, but I don't think either one of is arguing about the numbers provided for armor, incidence, range and penetration - instead we are arguing the conclusions reached and reachable from those numbers.
                            All you proved was that against the side armor of a Panther A that a 37mm on paper and in idealized tests is capable of penetrating 54mm/30deg@500m.

                            A panther G is virtually immune to that level of penetration on the sides, and is therefore virtually immune to flanking 37mm shots.

                            [QUOTE=dalem]Highly irrelevant to our discussion. The provided values are reached by averaging a range of results - we both know this.[QUOTE=dalem]

                            Actually, i have no idea how the site you listed came up with those figures.

                            What i want to see is actual US Military detailed penetration tables.

                            The tables you posted, and that Paul lakowski extrapolates, and that AG williams dreams up are not official sources, and are oft-times wildly incorrect vs the actual military tables(ask me how i know, and i will tell you it's because i've seen GLARING differneces in open source stuff and actual military performance specs on systems that i have actually used and was cleared for).


                            [QUOTE=dalem]Not every 37mm AP round fired would have penetrated to the average thickness listed - some rounds will exceed, and some will fail. The 54mm of RHA penetration at 30degrees listed on that little table are meant to be taken as a reliable estimate of average expected performance. [QUOTE=dalem]

                            And for all i know, the site you list just took the best penetrating round and listed that one. This is why i want the US Military tables. I can't find any listed online unfortunately.

                            Regardless, 54mm/30deg@500m is not enough to deal with a Panther G, and AGAIN, based on the extremely steep sloping of the Panther G i am highly doubtful that very many 37mm(or other caliber) rounds would even bite into the armor. IMO most would simply deflect upward.

                            [QUOTE=dalem]Unless of course I am wrong about how penetration values are generally arrived at - maybe it's the best/worst value instead of the average as I have always believed. I could go dig up some ancient AP/Armor discussion threads we had on the Combat Mission board - pages and pages of the stuff - capped, spaced, face-hardened, base charge, RHA, Brinnell numbers, blah blah blah.[QUOTE=dalem]

                            That would be fine. Just find some relevant text from that site, or simply ask them, let the thread run a few days, and then come back with the data.

                            I am not above being wrong.
                            Last edited by Bill; 21 Feb 06,, 20:04.

                            Comment


                            • Honestly Snipe, you're reaching. But if you want to go to bed tonight thinking that Panthers were invulnerable to 37mm AP fired into the side armor at under 500m, then be my guest. I've done all the reasonable research one can expect via the Web, and obviously none of that is getting through to you.

                              I swear it's like you took a lesson from lurker on debating style though. And yeah I know - that's not a compliment.

                              -dale

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Garry
                                Thank you Sniper! He actually got two more later - one in Poland 1944 and one in Prague in 1945. But in this cases that was a cases when they were clearly outnumbering german tankers. His total score was 6 tanks and two fighting vehicles, including one tank and fighting vehicle in 1941. Besides that he cracked under his tracks artillery pieces, trucks, infantry, and even an aircraft on a field!!! He always told that in a bloodbath like the WW II was, the luck was the single most important factor to survive besides training. SO HE WAS LUCKY TO SURVIVE THROUGH THAT WAR..... Especially in Prague. He told that was really bitter fight he had with so many tankers killed AFTER THE WAR WAS ALREADY OVER!!!

                                He had 3 tanks through the war. The first he burned himself in 1941 in encirlement, the next T-34 type 42 was destroyed by german anti-tank artillery..... in 1943 and the crew managed to survive. GREAT LUCK. Actually it was double luck as because of this he missed Kursk battle and survived :) the battle where his unit lost many experienced tankers. His last tank T-34-85 had good gun and stronger armor, but lacked speed and maneuvrability of T-34 Type 42. Still he liked it as well and killed two tigers in it. After war he was instructor teaching Chinese, Koreans and Mongolians in vast Mongolian steps.

                                Your grand father was probaly also lucky guy! I looked in the google but did not find the history of 8th Patton's army. Where did they fight? Always interested to read!
                                Damn, sorry bro, My GF was with Patton's 3d army
                                My other GF, on my mothers side, was a B-17 mechanic with the USAAF 8th AF.

                                I simply mixed up the two numbers. LOL....duh.

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