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  • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
    I'm a big proponent of the Panther. It's final versions were, IMHO, the finest tank of the war. It's evolution, though, was too little, too late given that the quality of allied armor also continued to rise while reliability remained generally superior.
    What do you think about the limited operational mobility of the Panther tanks? In your opinion, would Pz. V's lack of dependibility make fast deep battle like the early blitzkrieg impossible, as Ordn. sometimes claim?

    You wouldn't hear arguements from me that the Panther was anything less than the best German tank of the war, btw. And one of the only three tanks that can claim to be the best of the war.

    Originally posted by S-2 View Post
    I suspect many, many German commanders and soldiers from top to bottom remained in combat with wounds which by policy would have put our guys stateside permanently.
    I don't think Germans allowed badly wounded soldiers to be discharged at all. They take a convalescence leave and a wound badge. There was no equivalent to the million dollar wound.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
      This view has never been endorsed by any research. .
      Correct!


      The Germans lost massive numbers of Panther tanks in tank vs. tank engagements in Normany
      Certainly not from shermans they didn't

      Lorraine and Ardennes. Those were documented and verified by allied intellegence in battle field post mortems. They are reliable because the Germans left their panzers behind, and there was ample time for examination. A good example would be fighting during the early stages of the Bulge at the north where there was no allied CAS but still heavy German armor losses.
      Ah well thats because the Shermans were modified to mount larger guns at this point, Guns which had been in short supply in June 44.

      On the other hand, USAAF's kill claims during WWII was massively inflated at about ten times actual. The fact is that CAS were ineffective against armor as a destructive instrument compared to having tank or TD support.
      We had 18 rocket firing Typhoon squadrons involved in the falaise gap carnage. They destroyed a massive amount of German armour, thats a fact not an opinion!

      Bde Gen Clark, The commander of CCA 4th AD which fought the largest single armored engagement in the west in Aracourt, France said that at no time during that battle the contribution of airpower was critical. In that engagement his 75mm gun armed Shermans utterly dominated two Panther forces that outnumbered them 2:1 each.
      Sounds like US propoganda, I mean it was such a big battle that nobodies heard of it....Tank Battle at Aracourt ....hmmmm???


      The Panther might be invulnerable to frontal fires but there were just too many places on the battlefield to hide and shoot from. Even with the Panther's impressive firepower and armor, they were often knocked out by flank shots. German armor could not risk making day light movements in good weather for the fear of arty and CAS, fighting were often made in small groups and at close range. Under these circumstances Shermans could and did kill a lot Panther tanks
      With vastly improved gun barrels!
      Last edited by Pink; 12 Mar 09,, 00:04.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Pink View Post
        Correct!


        Certainly not from shermans they didn't
        Yes they did you stupid little troll.

        Ah well thats because the Shermans were modified to mount larger guns at this point, Guns which had been in short supply in June 44.
        They were still in short supply in September when Arracourt was fought. 1/37 armor sliced the hell out of the SS it faced.

        We had 18 rocket firing Typhoon squadrons involved in the falaise gap carnage. They destroyed a massive amount of German armour, thats a fact not an opinion!
        If we were talking about trucks, wagons and carts you would be correct. Were not we are talking about tanks.

        Sounds like US propoganda, I mean it was such a big battle that nobodies heard of it....Tank Battle at Aracourt ....hmmmm???
        people have heard of it, you haven't.

        During the Lorraine campaign in September 1944, the German 5th Panzer Corps massed the largest concentration of German tanks seen since the battles at Caen and Mortain in July 1944. This counterattack force included over 300 tanks, with the majority being new Panther tanks.

        Their opponet was the 4th Armoured Division, knwon as "Patton's Best", a well trained, well-led division which had become battle hardened since the fighting for Coutances in July 1944. From 19 to 22 September 1944, the 4th Armored Division broke the back of the German counteroffensive near Arracourt, destroying 107 tanks and 30 assault guns for the loss of only 14 M4 tanks and 7 M5A1 light tanks.

        Two of the new panzer brigades were wiped out in the fighting, and by the end of the fighting for Arracourt, the 4th Armored Division had destroyed 285 German tanks and armoured vehicles for the loss of 25 medium tanks and 7 tank destroyers.

        At the same time, the veteran French 2e Division Blindee smashed another panzer brigade putting an end to the largest German armor operation in the West until the Battle of the Bulge.

        [The M4 Sherman at War: the European Theatre 1942-1945 (Steven J. Zaloga; Concord Publications Company: 1994)]

        Note that the victory ratio was 32:285, or almost 1:9 in favour of the Americans.

        Of the units in the 4th Armored Division, one unit in particular distinguished itself. This was the 37th Armored Regiment, commanded by Creighton Abrams (Lieutanent-Colonel, then Colonel).

        Here is a description of the 37th actions around that time:

        The 37th spent those days spreading confusion and terror in the German rear areas. From 19 September through 22 September 1944 the Germans tried to push the 37th back across the Moselle. It was one of the largest tank-to-tank engagements of the war, at Mayenvie, the 37th lost 14 Shermans while knocking out 55 Panthers and Tigers. Needless to say, the German counterattack was unsuccessful.

        On 22 September the 37th's M4s swept south again through Coincourt and Bures to the Rhine-Marne Canal. Counterattack followed counterattack as the desperate Wehrmacht tried to dislodge the 3rd Army from its position, but as the toll of Panthers mounted, the attacks dwindled in intensity and finally ceased.

        The 37th was relieved on 12 October 1944 by elements of the 26th (Yankee) Infantry Division. For its tenacity in the Moselle Valley, the 37th was awarded its second Croix de Guerre with Palm by a grateful French Government (it's first coming in Normandy). The 37th's tankers were pulled off line for a rest after 87 straight days of combat.

        http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rmy/2-37ar.htm

        The victory ratio for the 37th was 14:55 or almost 1:4.

        By comparison, the battle around Prokhorovka during the Battle of Kursk - supposedly the largest tank battle in history - saw 32 German AFV's lost as opposed to 259 Russian AFV's.

        http://www.uni.edu/~licari/citadel.htm

        If these figures are accurate, a single American armored regiment at an little known battle had actually destroyed more German vehicles than the Russians at the reputedly largest tank battle of WW2!

        Here are some descriptions of actions fought during the battle:

        A section of M-4 tanks were in an outpost position south of Lezey when the first Panther suddenly loomed out of the fog-hardly seventy-five yards from the two American tanks. The Panther and two of its fellows were destroyed in a matter of seconds, whereupon the remaining German tanks turned hurriedly away to the south.

        Capt. William A. Dwight, the liaison officer who had reported the enemy armor, arrived at Arracourt and was ordered to take a platoon of the 704th Tank Destroyer Battalion to aid the tanks at Lezey. Just west of Bezange-la-Petite Dwight's platoon saw a number of German tanks moving through the fog. The tank destroyers quickly deployed in a shallow depression and opened fire at about 150 yards. In the short fight that followed, three of the four American tank destroyers were lost, but not until they had destroyed seven enemy tanks.

        The superior mobility of the American tanks and self-propelled tank destroyers gave the defenders a decided advantage. When the Panthers turned away, after the abortive attack at Lezey, Captain Lamison took four tanks from C Company and raced the enemy some three thousand yards to a commanding ridge west of Bezange-la-Petite. Arriving on the position about three minutes before eight Panthers appeared, Lamison's tanks got set and knocked out four of the German tanks before they could return the fire; then they withdrew over the crest of the ridge, moved south a short distance, reappeared, and finished off the remaining Panthers.

        In the late morning the German attack turned west toward Réchicourt-la-Petite, attempting to drive around the town, first to the north, then to the south. Here again the American artillery, tanks, and tank destroyers inflicted severe losses on the enemy armor. A platoon of tank destroyers from the 704th netted eight Panthers and succeeded in driving the rest of an enemy tank company back in flight.

        The company of medium tanks which had been sent to Lunéville returned in the afternoon and Colonel Clarke was ready to counterattack. A combined force from Companies A and B, 37th Tank Battalion, led by Maj. William L. Hunter, wheeled south through Réchicourt, caught the Germans in the flank, and knocked out nine Panthers with the loss of only three tanks. As the day ended, the 37th Tank Battalion turned its attention to mopping up the German infantry west of Moncourt, and finally, guided through the night by burning German tanks, assembled in the vicinity of Lezey.

        For more information, please refer to:
        http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwi...aine-ch05.html

        The most amazing thing about this battle was that the Americans had fought it with inferior weapons. They were armed with 75mm Sherman tanks, 3-in M10 Tank Destroyers, and the 76mm M18 Tank Destroyers. Most of the German tanks were Panthers.

        Another point is that most of the American vehicles had seen continuous combat since Jul 44, and had been in the dash across France since Operation Cobra. The German panzer brigades, on the other hand, were fresh and armed mostly with factory new tanks.

        Further of note as well was that much of the actions around Arracourt was fought in fog, which neutralised the Allied superiority in the air.

        It is curious that while the Battle of Kursk, Rommel's dashes across North Africa, and other battles were very well known, this American victory had not received much notice. Perhaps because it was simply treated as part of the larger American victory in France. Perhaps compared to the greater drama of the Battle of the Bulge, this battle seemed so lop-sided.

        Whatever it is, the American armored units, and in particular commanders such as COL Creighton Abrams, deserved more recognition for their achievements, using inferior and worn-out tanks to defeat superior and brand-new tanks.


        Quoted from the post by ogukuo72
        http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...p/t-68465.html

        With vastly improved gun barrels!
        Thank you for illuminating your ignorance. The M1A1, M1A1C and M2 were 76mm high velocity guns, not short barreled 75mm field guns. Strengthening the gun barrel had nothing to do with it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Pink View Post
          The Germans lost massive numbers of Panther tanks in tank vs. tank engagements in Normany
          Certainly not from shermans they didn't
          Yes, they did. Your claims are becoming absurd, as all German After Action Reports from their armored units reported losses to Allied tanks.

          Ah well thats because the Shermans were modified to mount larger guns at this point, Guns which had been in short supply in June 44.


          First of all, few Shermans were armed with the 76mm. This weapon was incapable of confronting Panthers frontally except at point blank range, but both the 75mm and the 76mm could penetrate Panther side armor from medium to long range.

          The German assault on Krinket-Rocherath was stopped entirely by a independent battalion of 75mm gun armed Shermans and bazookas. They faced two Panther companies of the 12th SS Panzer Division. This division would not deploy its Panther companies for the remainder of the Ardenes Battle. 3d AD had about just 1/3 of its Shermans armed with the 76mm. It engaged the 1st and 2d SS Panzer. Both units were armed to the teeth with Panther tanks. By the way, the German Tiger II crews in La Gleiza reported they had all been put out of action by tank fire and we know those were Sherman tanks from 3d AD.

          We had 18 rocket firing Typhoon squadrons involved in the falaise gap carnage. They destroyed a massive amount of German armour, thats a fact not an opinion!
          Shooting up columns caught in a traffic jam bumper to bumper, that is. MUCH harder to hunt down moving packs of armor.

          Sounds like US propoganda, I mean it was such a big battle that nobodies heard of it.
          Actually, it is widely known major battle. General Hasso von Manteuffel commanded the Fifth Panzer Army on the German side. By his battle reports to Model, the German acknowledged that all of his tanks had been destroyed after 48 hours of combat, and the American kill records matched exactly the German rollster. 111st and 113d Panzer Brigades entered combat full strength, armed almost completely with Panthers, and outnumbered their adversary 2:1 each.

          With vastly improved gun barrels!
          No. Every allied AT gun including the pathetic 57-mm is capable of killing a Panther with flank shots.
          All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
          -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

          Comment


          • Pink, I can appreciate your interest in and enthusiasm for the topic at hand, but a little less energy and a little more "listening" would serve you well.

            You can like or dislike a particular armored mount for any of a dozen reasons, but you can't change history. Shermans were NOT designed for the AT role and were not in the same AT class as Panthers, but they did "well enough" even with 75mm guns. That is of course no consolation to anyone who was sitting in one when a Panther got the drop on them, but it is still true.

            CAS was still in its infancy in WWII and was never very effective right at the front line except as a morale booster for whoever wasn't getting shot up, and far too often it was the friendly side on the receiving end.

            -dale

            Comment


            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Probably due to the casting process.
              Except for land mines that's the last likely place for a tank to get hit.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by dalem View Post
                Pink, I can appreciate your interest in and enthusiasm for the topic at hand, but a little less energy and a little more "listening" would serve you well.


                -dale
                And I appreciate your concern;) . On my part I would like to recommend you develope a sense of humour, or is that not allowed on here?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bugs View Post
                  Except for land mines that's the last likely place for a tank to get hit.
                  But it takes a beating in normal use and cradles the final drives. Maybe it was simply over engineered.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                    Yes, they did. Your claims are becoming absurd, as all German After Action Reports from their armored units reported losses to Allied tanks.
                    Has the penny not dropped yet?

                    Shooting up columns caught in a traffic jam bumper to bumper, that is. MUCH harder to hunt down moving packs of armor.
                    Ah so you acknowledge the event!



                    Actually, it is widely known major battle. General Hasso von Manteuffel commanded the Fifth Panzer Army on the German side. By his battle reports to Model, the German acknowledged that all of his tanks had been destroyed after 48 hours of combat, and the American kill records matched exactly the German rollster. 111st and 113d Panzer Brigades entered combat full strength, armed almost completely with Panthers, and outnumbered their adversary 2:1 each.
                    Aracourt? No mention of it in Charles B Mcdonalds book do you have a source?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pink View Post
                      Ah so you acknowledge the event!
                      You just don't get it. Air claimed 10 times more kills than they made.

                      Aracourt? No mention of it in Charles B Mcdonalds book do you have a source?
                      R. Weigley, Max Hastings, S. Zaloga. These people did their research with both US and German AARs.
                      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        Whatever it is, the American armored units, and in particular commanders such as COL Creighton Abrams, deserved more recognition for their achievements, using inferior and worn-out tanks to defeat superior and brand-new tanks.
                        I created a nice little scenario for my WWII miniatures ruleset that attempts to recreate the 9/8/1944 destruction of the 106th Panzer Brigade at Mairy by elements of the 90th Division.

                        The 106th Panzer Brigade, at platoon scale in 1/285 scale metal, looks pretty much like this.

                        -dale

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dalem View Post
                          I created a nice little scenario for my WWII miniatures ruleset that attempts to recreate the 9/8/1944 destruction of the 106th Panzer Brigade at Mairy by elements of the 90th Division.

                          The 106th Panzer Brigade, at platoon scale in 1/285 scale metal, looks pretty much like this.

                          -dale
                          Nice, minis can be fun.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Nice, minis can be fun.

                            Indeed. :)

                            Different, fictional setting, same scale:

                            Linky.

                            -dale

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dalem View Post
                              I created a nice little scenario for my WWII miniatures ruleset that attempts to recreate the 9/8/1944 destruction of the 106th Panzer Brigade at Mairy by elements of the 90th Division.

                              The 106th Panzer Brigade, at platoon scale in 1/285 scale metal, looks pretty much like this.

                              -dale
                              Where are the smoke and flames?

                              Oh, and since the 90th ID (Tough 'Ombres) had no organic armor....who killed the tanks? Could it have been the attached armor battalion? Attached AT Battalion? 4 Battalions of division artillery? 1 attalions of corps artillery?
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • General Hasso Von Manteuffel, a fine Tank Commander, also fought at the Bulge.

                                Pink may not of heard of the Battle of Arracourt (note spelling), due to the fact that it does not exists in either American or German records, however if you looked at 'German Counter Attack near Arracourt', you would be more accurate I think you will find. I trust this is of some use!

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