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Thread: Asbestos on the Iowa-class?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay
    ...and I think Clemencau will be heading back to China, Pakistan or Bangladesh.
    Apparently Chirac has ordered the ship returned to France.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...bled_Ship.html
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

  2. #17
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    Asbestos abatement is very expensive and very time consuming on ships. It would be better to take it out to deep water and make a reef out of it.

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    Ok, I'm new to this board but I was searching HT related threads and figured I'd contribute.

    I was honorably discharged from the Navy six months ago from the USS Frank Cable AS-40 serving in Guam. I worked for roughly a year in 57-A, the shop that most shipyard repair facilities and IMAs (Intermediate Maintenance Activities) would call the "Lag Shop". Yes, indeed we were called Laggers. It is not pejorative, negative or insulting - its what that shop does. Just because 56-A (Pipefitters), 11-A (Shipfitters), 26-A (4955-NEC coded welders) all have cool names doesn't mean being called a Lagger is an insult. I will admit that its not entirely exciting for those who do the work.

    I am also OSHA certified as an Asbestos Supervisor as well, although it is expiring this year from disuse. Asbestos is not likely to be on any ship built post circa 1976-78 when it fell out of favor amidst controversial lawsuits based on its health implications. Asbestosis (permanent scarring of the lungs from fibrous airborne ACM, asbestos containing materials)) and mesothelioma are the two biggest health concerns.

    However, most of these diseases have a latency of twenty to fourty years. This coincides with WWII when a lot of ships were insulated with the material and the work was very messy - particulate asbestos flying everywhere.

    The guy who wrote earlier that ships only mess with asbestos when its being worked with is absolutely right. The US Navy only messes with installed asbestos when it interferes with existing maintenance. For instance, we had to remove some from the boilers (might have been the economizer - I can't remember exactly) on the Kitty Hawk.

    And in response to saying that Laggers implies someone who puts up insulation but doesn't know what they're doing - that would actually be correct if you were referring to reservists. That's commonly what we do with them - shove 'em in a fan room and tell them to lag everything. I can't exactly remember the NSTM, 672 I think, but that coupled with the current iteration of the JFMM and a "Lagger" knows everything they need to install the material.

    Asbestos Abatement is fringe, but it is still important to the US Navy. They simply cannot dispose of ships on the basis of asbestos presence, since they do not have to remove what they don't need to. Scuttling a ship would never be done on the sole basis of asbestos presence. Because most asbestos abatement is scheduled to occur within an IMA or better, timing is not usually a problem.

    On a more widespread level I imagine its only a matter of time before just about any MMVF can be shown to cause fibrous scarring of the lungs and similar conditions, provided similar work conditions.

    HT2 (SW) Shawn E. Cantu

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantuse
    Ok, I'm new to this board but I was searching HT related threads and figured I'd contribute.

    I was honorably discharged from the Navy six months ago from the USS Frank Cable AS-40 serving in Guam.

    HT2 (SW) Shawn E. Cantu
    First, welcome to the board

    My ex-roommate/best friend served on the Frank Cable (the Navy's only "4.0" tender ) around 8-9 years ago, as an FT2 (SS).

    Oddly enough, his name is Shawn as well...
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
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  5. #20
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    I just got home from Las Vegas but I'll throw out some odds and ends.
    I was a Pipecoverer and Insulator for 20 years, not a "Lagger." I'm highly skilled at installing all types of insulations used aboard ships. I can measure, manufacture portable insulation (pads), manufacture and correctly install "spray shields" the anti splash guards on fuel oil and lube oil lines and I can manufacture and hand sew an insulation called "thermal tape" using blind seam stitching on piping 1/2" and smaller, like the piping you'd see on steam heaters in berthing quarters. So yes, I find the term Lagger insulting. Truthfully, I must admit that very people in my shop knew shipboard piping systems and most did the "going home" stitch when confronted with thermal tape. The "going home" stitch was whatever it took to hold both ends together. Some of them might be indifferent to the term lagger. When I was still an apprentice one of my old time supervisors showed me some 30" round ducting in the Chief's quarters of the New Jersey (starboard side, now behind the false longitudinal bulkhead. He wanted me to wrap the round ducting in 1" yellow glass then put heavy red cloth over it and hand stitch everything. Once I was done, he wanted the flange covers made the same way then blind stitched to the body of the ducting. It was about 15' long and took me 2 days to do the thousands of hand stitches. You couldn't see a single stitch when I was done. No, I'm not a Lagger. I've been to 2 SIMA's, one in Long Beach and the other at 32nd st base in San Diego. I saw any work there that impressed me, just basic stuff. The Chiefs at SIMA San Diego were really good people, they'd either trade me insulation materials or just give it to me outright when I down in San Diego to do a quick job and the material ordered was the wrong size for the piping or the ship wanted extra work.
    I can't truthfully remember ever seeing "hard" insulation on an economizer, usually the economizer is still sheathed within the top of the boiler, but we do put portable insulation on the expansion joint right above the economizer. Of course we know that the economizer is the web of piping on top of the boiler that the feedwater goes though to add approximately 100 degrees to its already 240 degree temperature before it goes into the steam drum.
    You don't need long term exposure to asbestos to get mesothelomia, a cancer on the lining of your lungs which is always fatal and usually within 2 years but the truth is it takes less than 6 months because the people are usually very weak and die of pneumonia. I've lost about a dozen friends to mesothelomia. Steve McQueen, the actor died of mesothelomia and it's a guess that it might have come from exposure during his merchant marine service or the fireproof racing suits he wore during his racing days. I remember reading that a 7 year old boy died of mesothelomia. His dad was an auto mechanic and the kid probably got exposed when he hung around the shop and watched his dad do brake jobs. I personally have clean lungs but I do have asbestos corns on my hands, a cyst on the right side of my neck and I had a tumor removed from the left side of my neck. Interesting enough, the areas of my neck that the tumor and cyst were were where my asbestos respirator sealed during my hundreds of asbestos abatements.
    Lastly, just for fun, there are 3 types of asbestos found on Navy ships, white asbestos which is chrysotile, blue asbestos which is crocidilite and brown asbestos which is amosite and the purest form of asbestos and in a lot of forms is water proof, so amended water has to be used to soak it before removing it.

  6. #21
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    Salty: I apologize if any of my previous postings suggested you were just a lowly "lagger". Having known you for the past several years and the work you put in helping me with my book I actually know better. A skilled insulator, as you were, is far from the local jobbers wrapping fiberglass around the new air conditioning ducts in your attic. When I was an apprentice shipfitter, I often would just watch you guys in awe (while waiting for a welder) and wonder how you did your work so well. I had a heck of a time today just cutting in some new carpeting around the toilet.

    But then, that's not steel plate either (Hey Honey! Get me the BIGGER hammer out of the garage).

    However, I am happy to see your posting and the explanations. A lot of people wouldn't know what a demanding job it is and what knowledge and training (such as our FOUR year apprenticeship) is needed to do it.

  7. #22
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    I actually got out in about 3.5 years. It would have been 3 years but they held me up so another guy could be advanced the same time as me. I used to study Principles of Naval Engineering at home and during lunch I'd stay down in the engineering spaces and study systems of the ships I was working on. Years later the Insulation apprenticeship was cancelled on the recommendation of one of our general foreman who convinced the training department it didn't take 4 years to learn how to be an insulator. Considering this general foreman didn't know much about insulation nor shipboard systems he wasn't one to be taken seriously.

    I'd find it funny when I'd have to go out to the Prarie on pier 15 and work on their boiler piping or SSTG's or go down to San Diego to work on the Cape Cod, considering they were both tenders and had their own insulation shops onboard. Another one of our fun jobs was wrapping superheater headers, screen wall headers, and propeller shafts in shop, with layers high temp matt glass so they could bring up the metal to the proper temperature before they were welded and then the insulation had to be kept on while they brought the temperature down 1 degree per hour. It had to be designed so that only certain areas would be uncovered at a time to keep maximum temperature in. Climbing into a vertical superheater header bank on the side of the boiler, or under the boilers of a LHA while standing in bilge water wasn't a lot of fun either.

  8. #23
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    Dick, I really didn't take offense to the lagger remark but I do want people to realize there are different skill levels to that job, pretty much like all jobs out there. A lot of people in a lot of trades don't know what they're doing. There were a few times after LOE and after the PEB left, if I was required to be in the fireroom during initial light-off, I'd be standing near the escape trunk......

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAL's_pal?
    There were a few times after LOE and after the PEB left, if I was required to be in the fireroom during initial light-off, I'd be standing near the escape trunk......
    Standing by the escape trunk. You're smarter than most people.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAL's_pal?
    I just got home from Las Vegas but I'll throw out some odds and ends.
    Code:
    I was a Pipecoverer and Insulator for 20 years, not a "Lagger."  I'm highly skilled at installing all types of insulations used aboard ships.
    I can measure, manufacture portable insulation (pads), manufacture and correctly install "spray shields" the anti splash guards on fuel oil and lube oil lines and I can manufacture and hand sew an insulation called "thermal tape" using blind seam stitching on piping 1/2" and smaller, like the piping you'd see on steam heaters in berthing quarters. So yes, I find the term Lagger insulting. Truthfully, I must admit that very people in my shop knew shipboard piping systems and most did the "going home" stitch when confronted with thermal tape. The "going home" stitch was whatever it took to hold both ends together. Some of them might be indifferent to the term lagger. When I was still an apprentice one of my old time supervisors showed me some 30" round ducting in the Chief's quarters of the New Jersey (starboard side, now behind the false longitudinal bulkhead. He wanted me to wrap the round ducting in 1" yellow glass then put heavy red cloth over it and hand stitch everything. Once I was done, he wanted the flange covers made the same way then blind stitched to the body of the ducting. It was about 15' long and took me 2 days to do the thousands of hand stitches. You couldn't see a single stitch when I was done. No, I'm not a Lagger. I've been to 2 SIMA's, one in Long Beach and the other at 32nd st base in San Diego. I saw any work there that impressed me, just basic stuff. The Chiefs at SIMA San Diego were really good people, they'd either trade me insulation materials or just give it to me outright when I down in San Diego to do a quick job and the material ordered was the wrong size for the piping or the ship wanted extra work.
    I can't truthfully remember ever seeing "hard" insulation on an economizer, usually the economizer is still sheathed within the top of the boiler, but we do put portable insulation on the expansion joint right above the economizer. Of course we know that the economizer is the web of piping on top of the boiler that the feedwater goes though to add approximately 100 degrees to its already 240 degree temperature before it goes into the steam drum.
    You don't need long term exposure to asbestos to get mesothelomia, a cancer on the lining of your lungs which is always fatal and usually within 2 years but the truth is it takes less than 6 months because the people are usually very weak and die of pneumonia. I've lost about a dozen friends to mesothelomia. Steve McQueen, the actor died of mesothelomia and it's a guess that it might have come from exposure during his merchant marine service or the fireproof racing suits he wore during his racing days. I remember reading that a 7 year old boy died of mesothelomia. His dad was an auto mechanic and the kid probably got exposed when he hung around the shop and watched his dad do brake jobs. I personally have clean lungs but I do have asbestos corns on my hands, a cyst on the right side of my neck and I had a tumor removed from the left side of my neck. Interesting enough, the areas of my neck that the tumor and cyst were were where my asbestos respirator sealed during my hundreds of asbestos abatements.
    Lastly, just for fun, there are 3 types of asbestos found on Navy ships, white asbestos which is chrysotile, blue asbestos which is crocidilite and brown asbestos which is amosite and the purest form of asbestos and in a lot of forms is water proof, so amended water has to be used to soak it before removing it.
    Which is a lagger, you install lagging. Lagging... insulation installed to promote lag time of heat transfer, to or from.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by porsteamboy
    Which is a lagger, you install lagging. Lagging... insulation installed to promote lag time of heat transfer, to or from.
    I think he means the term lagger is used pejoratively.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter
    I think he means the term lagger is used pejoratively.
    Boy, I didn't know you had a knack for such big words. I got along with our shop 72 divers and the crewmen of Sealab II very well because (also being an ex shipfitter) they only have a 250 word vocabulary -- that can be said in mixed company.

    Hey! I didn't coin that phrase. Captain George Bond (Sealab II and test diver for the free ascent method) did. It was reiterated by Captain Walter Mazzone (Sealab II medical officer) and agreed to by Commander M. Scott Carpenter. I just happened to be in their office one day when they were discussing the accuracy of the number 250 and wondering if it was too high.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship
    Boy, I didn't know you had a knack for such big words. I got along with our shop 72 divers and the crewmen of Sealab II very well because (also being an ex shipfitter) they only have a 250 word vocabulary -- that can be said in mixed company.
    Wow, you guys are right up there with Marines
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape
    Wow, you guys are right up there with Marines
    Thank you. As an ex-doggie (tank gunner) and had the equivilant rating of a LtCdr in the Navy I will take that as a compliment.

    But I just got done watching Gunnery Sgt. R. Lee Emry's show on the History Channel from aboard the Battleship Missouri. So I'm feeling a tad gung ho right now.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBattleship
    Thank you. As an ex-doggie (tank gunner) and had the equivilant rating of a LtCdr in the Navy I will take that as a compliment.

    But I just got done watching Gunnery Sgt. R. Lee Emry's show on the History Channel from aboard the Battleship Missouri. So I'm feeling a tad gung ho right now.

    I think we would both agree that the kings of cursing are BMs. I heard one go on a 15 min rant and I could count the "mixed company" words using my fingers.
    Human Scum. Proud Never Trumper

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