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Osama Bin Laden is dead and his corpse is in US hands.

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    What kind of Helli is this?

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    • i am pretty sure that if anyone here would know, he wouldn't tell you.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
        i am pretty sure that if anyone here would know, he wouldn't tell you.
        Well many are going to estimate from the wreckage in Pakistan or may be in China

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tinymarae View Post
          Just hate to see a thread this important locked as AR warned.




          Oh come on. Your bruins defeated the habs and haven't choked against the flyers(yet). Nothing should harsh your mellow ;)

          Dude, pregame jitters.

          Feeling better this AM, though!
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
            You will have to forgive me Tarek as many members have mentioned this in the past few days and I have been looking for an update. Thanks
            Yes, my comments were not meant for AM...he has long established and respected presence here on the WAB.

            While I do not always agree with him he usually comes from a reasoned point of view.

            It was directed at people whose Join Date was 2 or 3 May 2011 and had fewer than 100 posts....regardless of the flag on their profile.
            Last edited by Albany Rifles; 05 May 11,, 13:58.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • Originally posted by Julie View Post
              AM,

              Forget the neighborhood and the retired military living very close by....

              The only question you should answer is why would Osama seek refuge for so many years in Pakistan? Osama is from Saudia Arabia.....why Pakistan?

              Just answer that one question. Do keep in mind also, that other known terrorists have been found in Pakistan as well. Why do they ALL end up in Pakistan?
              After 9/11, and especially after the invasion of Afghanistan, OBL was not going to be traveling in any manner that meant going through customs or coming in contact with border officials. That meant sticking to regions where government control was tenuous, corrupt and inefficient, lots of poverty and underdevelopment - welcome to Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Af-Pak border is as porous as one can find anywhere, especially because of the terrain, and OBL's support base and loyalists were primarily Pashtun when he was in Afghanistan, which meant being limited to Afghanistan and Pakistan.
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                What if you found out that just by chance someone (who had heard a reporters conversation) already had a guess of where he was staying as far back as 2008 and pretty much called it perfectly? Would that surprise you? And if so true Im sure the Pakastani Officials knew as well. Hmmm?
                Who did this 'someone' contact? Was the US informed of this back in 2008? Was Pakistan?

                If you dont pay any attention as to what US aid is supposed to be funding...Electrical infastructure, Schools and Hospitals. How happy do you think the people of Pak would be to see that cut off. That would be over 7.5 billion dollars from the US alone over a five year period which would slump beyond slump Pakistans economy. If you didnt already know Pakistan is already billions in debt to International Monitary Fund , The World Bank and other International backers. Shes basically broke without all of this aid. And loosing this aid would no doubt cripple its military in a heartbeat and therefore the populace.
                In case you haven't noticed, investment under the KLL is proceeding at a very slow pace, and the impact on public perception is pretty negligible at this point. In fact, the Pakistani Finance Minister pointed out, at a conference in the US a few weeks ago, that only around $300 million had been disbursed so far from KLL funds.

                So in terms of the impact of those funds currently, there is none, and if Congress does end the program, very little will be missed.

                I'm pretty certain that India would have no problem with this at all as it has been US intervention that has stopped conflict between the two.
                That is an excuse for inaction more than anything else from the Indians - if they really felt like they could take on Pakistan without suffering very heavily themselves, the US would not be able to stop them.

                What can the US do to stop them? Nothing long term really, and the Indians know that.

                Meanwhile Pakistan chooses to target (when it feels like) Pakistani Taliban (home grown) and the ones that target Pakistans interior and in the same time leaves untouched factions like Haqqani which exclusively focuses on attacks on NATO in Afghanistan as well as Afghans security forces.
                As I said to S2 and Troung - you can criticize Pakistani efforts in NW once the US has a satisfactory explanation for the sheltering of one of Pakistan's most wanted terrorist leaders under their noses in Kabul (and wikileaks proves US officials knew of his presence and location) and controls the terrorist groups based in Eastern Afghanistan that periodically launch attacks against Pakistan.
                They also tend to believe these two groups will somehow come to power after the US leaves Afghanistan. Pakistans Itelligence Services are also long believed in bed with the group that targets attacks in India such as Lashkar-e-Taiba.
                Pakistan simply does not see the Afghanistan conflict being resolved in the manner the US does - this is not simply about 'bringing the Taliban to power' - we seriously think that the quickest and best way to end the conflict is to negotiate with the parties involved and arrive at a power sharing agreement with all parties renouncing violence and coming to an understanding on the future structure of the country. Pakistan wants to see at least a sincere attempt at resolving the conflict in that manner - whether it will work or not is a different matter.
                You can sit here on this thread and claim Pakistan can survive without this aid but others know far to well what would happen if it was cut off....... Pakistan would end up more of a terrorist playground then what it already is and would more then likely get attacked by India and a few others since they would have no power to counter these groups.
                As I pointed out, Pakistan needs a 'kick in the pants' in the form of an end to US aid and IMF loans to highlight the incompetence of the current political elite, or force them to implement reforms to cover the revenue shortfall. Pakistan has the economic base and resources to generate more than what it currently takes in annually from aid and loans. Just reforming/privatizing the largest public sector companies would save Pakistani taxpayers $3 billion annually - that is how much they lose every year and the taxpayer has to cover. Raising the taxpayer ratio even a little bit over the 8% it is currently would net significant revenues as well.

                Pakistan does not need aid, it needs reforms, and the view of many Pakistanis, including myself, is that US aid and loans are preventing those reforms by artificially keeping the country afloat and covering its revenue shortfalls.
                I'd be more then happy to see you explain to the Pakistani people that this billions in aid was cut off because the Army refused to engage these groups but yet have known they have existed on their soil and trained there for a very long time.
                Don't base public opinion on what you read in the English language Pakistani papers - they represent a minority. IMF loans are extremely unpopular in Pakistan, and the loss of US aid will barely make a ripple when attached to rhetoric of 'we no longer owe the US anything and the US has limited influence over Pakistan'.

                IMO, Its only a matter of time until somebody has had enough so I wouldnt be too busy gloating that Pakistan dont need these billions in aid when they no doubt surely do and would be up shits creek without it and that is financial fact. Deny it if you like but the facts are indeed crystal clear.

                In the end its OUR lawmakers that gives billions in aid to Pakistan.

                It is also the American people that elect those lawmakers that give this aid and if threatened with their jobs what side do you think they will choose?;)

                The US people could put an end to that Aid faster then you think since Election Season isint very far off.;)
                I hope I have satisfactorily explained why many Pakistanis would in fact be glad if aid is cut, since we see it as hindering, not helping, reforms in Pakistan.

                This is not mere bravado - this is a very serious and significant school of thought in Pakistan, that the current US-Pakistan relationship based on aid is unsustainable, transactional and counterproductive. IMO, the US has refused Pakistani requests since 2001 for greater trade access, civilian nuclear cooperation and any tangible strategic cooperation or relationship precisely because it wants Pakistan dependent upon US aid and IMF loans in order to retain influence over the country.

                Despite all the rhetoric of 'long term strategic relationship' out of the political leadership of both sides, the fact is that there is nothing 'long term' or 'strategic' about the relationship - it is short term and transactional, based on the promise of aid in exchange for Counter terrorism cooperation.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  IMO, the US has refused Pakistani requests since 2001 for greater trade access, civilian nuclear cooperation and any tangible strategic cooperation or relationship precisely because it wants Pakistan dependent upon US aid and IMF loans in order to retain influence over the country.
                  I know of mills not far from where I live that got shutdown in light of the Pakistani access to our markets making the same products in 2002 and they couldn't be competitive. So you got the trade access.

                  As far as "civilian nuclear cooperation":

                  “If the Pakistani intelligence agency does not know about a home located 10 meters or 100 meters away from its national military academy, where for the last six years the biggest terrorist is living, how can this country take care of its strategic weapons?”
                  -General Azimi, spokesman for the Afghanistan Defense Ministry

                  Comment


                  • Bashir provided additional details about Pakistan’s role in the years-long search for bin Laden, and about its actions the morning of the raid, when he said two Pakistani F-16 fighter jets were deployed in response to the U.S. operation. By the time the jets reached the compound, the raid was over.

                    He said a cellphone number for bin Laden’s trusted courier was discovered by Pakistan’s top spy agency and provided to the CIA, which used it to locate bin Laden’s compound.
                    Pakistan questions legality of U.S. operation that killed bin Laden - The Washington Post

                    The 'complicity' argument, with barely any legs to stand on to begin with, is pretty much dead IMO.
                    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rj1 View Post
                      I know of mills not far from where I live that got shutdown in light of the Pakistani access to our markets making the same products in 2002 and they couldn't be competitive. So you got the trade access.
                      Are you sure it wasn't the African Growth and Opportunity Act enacted in 2000 that gave African nations duty free access? Or for that matter the Chinese or Bangladeshis, both of whose textile exports significantly exceed those of Pakistan?

                      If there was special trade access granted to Pakistan, I am unaware of it, but would be glad to be corrected if you can offer the agreement under which it was offered.
                      As far as "civilian nuclear cooperation":

                      -General Azimi, spokesman for the Afghanistan Defense Ministry
                      One involves detecting a man on the run, avoiding any form of modern or electronic communication, and possibly never even stepping outside his hideout for fear people might spot him.

                      The other involves security of well established infrastructure that is known to be a potential target of terrorists and criminals.

                      I believe Pakistan's track record of safety with respect to its nuclear infrastructure and facilities, since the seventies, speaks for it self.

                      The only security glitch we have suffered is related to the duplicity of one of the top scientists involved in the program, and the fact that we needed the black market network he was running, which meant that he had significant lee way to use that same network for his own purposes as well.

                      Azimi has no clue - typical Afghan nonsense to bash Pakistan whenever they can. That is one thing the Afghans and Indians have in common - whining and crying about every possible piece of negative news to malign Pakistan and try and get the US/West to damage Pakistan, since they can't openly do it themselves without suffering significantly.
                      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                      Comment


                      • Terrorstanis are mad....

                        Pakistan gives warning against further raids
                        Foreign minister says any country seeking future raids such as the one on bin Laden will face "disastrous consequences".
                        Last Modified: 05 May 2011 11:50
                        Pakistan gives warning against further raids - Americas - Al Jazeera English
                        The raid on bin Laden has led to questions over how the leader went undetected in Pakistan [Reuters]

                        Pakistan has warned the US and other countries against future raids on suspected fighters, saying they will face consequences from the military.

                        Salman Bashir, Pakistan's foreign minister, said "there shall no be any doubt that any repetition of such an act will have disastrous consequences", referring to the raid on Monday that killed Osama bin Laden, the head of al-Qaeda.

                        "We feel that that sort of misadventure or miscalculation would result in a terrible catastrophe," he said on Thursday in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital.

                        "There should be no doubt Pakistan has adequate capacity to ensure its own defence."

                        The US commando raid was conducted without the knowledge of the government, it has said, leading to anger over the violation of the country's sovereignty.

                        The foreign ministry said the raid was an "unauthorised unilateral action".

                        However, the CIA said it kept Pakistan out of the loop because it feared bin Laden would be tipped off, highlighting the depth of mistrust between the two supposed allies.

                        Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, said it would stand by Pakistan despite the strain put on the relationship bythe discovery of bin Laden so close to the Pakistani capital.

                        "It is not always an easy relationship, you know that," she said in Rome, the Italian capital, on Thursday.

                        "But, on the other hand, it is a productive one for both our countries and we are going to continue to cooperate between our governments, our militaries, our law-enforcement agencies, but most importantly between the American and Pakistani people."

                        She also said the US and its allies must continue working with Pakistan to fight al-Qaeda in that country and Afghanistan.

                        US special forces launched the Monday morning raid without the knowledge of Pakistan officials, with helicopter-borne soldiers attacking a compound in Abbottabad, north of Islamabad.

                        Four other people were also killed in the raid.

                        Pakistan has been under international pressure to explain why the al-Qaeda chief was able to hide in a compound in a hill town near its capital.
                        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Julie View Post
                          AM,

                          Forget the neighborhood and the retired military living very close by....

                          The only question you should answer is why would Osama seek refuge for so many years in Pakistan? Osama is from Saudia Arabia.....why Pakistan?

                          Just answer that one question. Do keep in mind also, that other known terrorists have been found in Pakistan as well. Why do they ALL end up in Pakistan?
                          And not just somewhere in Pakistan, but Umer Patek, the 2002 'Bali bomber', was found in the very same city Bin Laden was assassinated in only a few months ago! Amazing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                            Pakistan questions legality of U.S. operation that killed bin Laden - The Washington Post

                            The 'complicity' argument, with barely any legs to stand on to begin with, is pretty much dead IMO.
                            And some more from the Army:

                            Still, it said its Inter-Services Intelligence agency had given initial information to the CIA about bin Laden, but claimed the "CIA did not share further development of intelligence on the case with the ISI, contrary to the existing practice between the two services."
                            The Associated Press: Pakistan army orders cut in US military personnel
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                              And not just somewhere in Pakistan, but Umer Patek, the 2002 'Bali bomber', was found in the very same city Bin Laden was assassinated in only a few months ago! Amazing.
                              And arrested by Pakistani security forces BTW, as was Libbi and as was Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

                              And apparently Pakistan provided some critical intelligence leading to the capture of OBL as well.
                              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by troung View Post
                                Terrorstanis are mad....
                                Now we are childish enough to resort to name-calling are we?

                                Really shows who is 'mad' :D

                                Keep ranting, doesn't make any of your fanciful arguments trying to paint Pakistan as complicit in hiding OBL any more credible or true.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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