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What if: GPS and all Western satellites are successfully neutralised

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  • #76
    well, in the end they weren't screwed over by over-reliance on technology; in the end they were both screwed over by poor leadership and poor strategic decisions.

    it's true they spent way too much chasing after the just over-the-horizon technology (especially the nazis), but i suspect they would have been doomed anyways even if they made all the right technological moves.

    tech is nice. the people always matter more, as S2 pointed out. and what's shocking for me is seeing the gap, not just in the tech, but in the amount of education/training that the US and to a slightly lesser extent the rest of the ABCA, gives its people.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #77
      Originally posted by S2 View Post
      "...But the question had to do with over-reliance on electronics and electrical power dependency..."

      I missed that in your reply and, instead, presumed it an example of this larger question-

      "I can't tell whether you are concerned about technological over-reliance bringing down nations or you are not concerned...But what I want to understand is the term over-reliance. At what point does it become 'over' versus simply 'reliant'?"
      Yes, I did scrunch down the question to a particular situation. The two technologies you described, first from your day and the more automated technology which replaced it, represent a progression toward greater automation of the functioning of an artillery unit. It is a microcosm that describes the bigger phenomenon I am talking about. That is, as we eliminate human involvement and replace it with automation, the human skills necessary to keep it operating narrow down to data entry and knowing which buttons to push. The key ingredient, however, is electrical power. Without it the machine stops and all results cease. This brings us to an understanding of what over-reliance means. If there is no power and the human operator is unable to accomplish the desired result by alternative means, then we have over-reliance. Reasonable reliance would suggest viable alternate backup systems. My concern is whether we have adequate backup.

      I am not much worried about small scale functions, like in my business, not having CAD to draw house plans can be replaced by hand-drawn plans. The loss of my accounting program would be a hassle unless I routinely print a paper backup, which I don't. But massive-scale functions that control banking, transportation, electrical grids, medical machines, military systems, satellite communications are far more difficult to manage without electrical power--impossible I would say. So, as we become more reliant on these systems, we also become more vulnerable to any disruption in their operation. We can even see a day when so much is dependent on electrical power that merely cutting the power, sends us right back to total reliance on human mental and physical power and all that that entails. If that were to happen, the only countries that might be unaffected are those that are still backwards. Perhaps, nature in its genius has programmed into man a drive to progress but also insurance that if he progresses along the wrong course, his drive will slow down or his world will collapse. In either case, he will want to start over again. It seems to me the general progress man has made over the centuries has no plausible end in itself, only in some of its esoteric parts, and on the whole cannot be sustained indefinitely. If we get to a place where we just push buttons and one day we push a button and nothing happens, what then? We're just that far away from a primitive existence as we are 100 years away from extinction if we stop reproducing today. Well, happy thoughts for a lazy Saturday...


      Not sure where I'm at with all this but my original reply stands. I'm non-plussed by it all. Unconcerned. I don't twitter or instagram and won't. I don't skype but sorta wish I did. Don't NEED it though. If I did, I'd be grateful. Didn't own a cell phone until 2001 and didn't own a computer until 2004. Now I don't maintain a land-line but live on a computer while benefiting from communities like WAB (although there's really nothing out there quite like this lil' corner of heaven).
      I'm inclined to your lack of concern inasmuch as I can't do anything about it. Speaking of cellphones and such, I was an early adopter. First cellphone in 1984 compliments of DoD weighed 4 lbs. First computer was a Singer--yes, they made a computer--and you had to hook it to a TV and write your own programs in basic. But tech moved really fast then. Got a Trash 80, then a PC in 1985. Piece of handmade trash that set me back $1,500 at the time...$3k in today's money. Then Dells one after the other, cheaper and cheaper, until now a $500 desktop is a 1000 times better than my first PC. Skype is nice, but to talk to the relative where they see my ugly mug, iPhone's FaceTime works fine. For business, a cell and a computer are nearly indispensable. The new smartphones now serve as computers in a pinch, although for accounting a desk top is better. They save me a lot of time, but can also waste time. Like you, I don't Twitter etc, although Facebook I do a little of to keep up with relatives and friends. As for the WAB, yes, I agree...:)
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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      • #78
        Steve, while this thread has taken a bit of an exit ramp I LOVED your great explanation of heavy metal thunder.

        Like the A-10 we grunts love our DS artillery.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

          Like the A-10 we grunts love our DS artillery.
          Especially when they manage to shoot the enemy,not us

          As for over-reliance on tech.Every tech at some point becomes cheap,simple to operate,easy to manufacture and very reliable.It doesn't takes much imagination to see some wise men 50000 years ago debating over-reliance on bows and arrows.
          Black powder can be made better and safer by some kids as a hobby than it was by the best technicians 300 years ago.

          Electricity and computing are fast getting to that level,when we don't even notice them.We'll find then new shiny toys.
          Those who know don't speak
          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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          • #80
            JAD is right. Smartphones are now like mini-computers :)




            -Sent from my Android-
            sigpic

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
              JAD is right. Smartphones are now like mini-computers :)




              -Sent from my Android-
              Not as easy as a PC, but good in a pinch.
              To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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              • #82
                There is more computing power in an IPhone 4 than in both the Command and Lunar Modules used in the Apollo program.
                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                  Don't know what it is called at Sill
                  A B*tch :Dancing-Banana:

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by S2 View Post
                    [B]. PADS (Position Azimuth Determination System) might, for instance, make a re-emergence. A cool, HUMVEE mounted gyro-nav system that had to periodically re-orient over a known point and a limited range (about twenty miles max from the orienting station). Still, a quantum leap forward for artillery survey. New and utterly revolutionary in 1985.

                    Outmoded by 1991.
                    You could go more than 20 miles and still be accurate as long as you did 5 min Z-Vels .(4th order Survey or 0.060mil PE accuracy for those not blessed by the King)

                    We also had ground based beacons that were a prelude to BFT way back when. But I cannot remember what the system was called

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                      A B*tch :Dancing-Banana:
                      Get back in the BOC, Gunny. Back in the BOC.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                        Get back in the BOC, Gunny. Back in the BOC.
                        They ran out of lifer juice.

                        You cannot imagine the joy it use to bring me watching young 2dLts at Sill.

                        Especially when we rode them around for an hour in the back of a 5 ton, with all the flaps down. Stopped, told them to get out. Then show them a defined space in the distance and tell them , "You have 5 min to work up a Call for fire, both Grid and Polar."

                        Where are we SSgt?

                        I don't know sir, You have the map and compass. And about 3 mins before you NoGo this event.

                        Good times

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                        • #87
                          "...Especially when we rode them around for an hour in the back of a 5 ton, with all the flaps down. Stopped, told them to get out. Then show them a defined space in the distance and tell them , 'You have 5 min to work up a Call for fire, both Grid and Polar.'"

                          You a gunnery instructor in FAOBC? Those were the only guys I know that were teaching observed fire procedures. I had an Army SFC gunnery instructor through both OBC and FACBOC, btw.
                          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            They ran out of lifer juice.

                            You cannot imagine the joy it use to bring me watching young 2dLts at Sill.

                            Especially when we rode them around for an hour in the back of a 5 ton, with all the flaps down. Stopped, told them to get out. Then show them a defined space in the distance and tell them , "You have 5 min to work up a Call for fire, both Grid and Polar."

                            Where are we SSgt?

                            I don't know sir, You have the map and compass. And about 3 mins before you NoGo this event.

                            Good times
                            ITS CALLED RESECTION YOU DUMBASS SIRS!!!!!


                            DID NONE OF YOU "GENTLEMEN" PAY ATTENTION IN CLASS!??!??!


                            Did it go something like that, Gunny?
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • #89
                              I see our MilPros are still having fun with their abbrevs on us civilians... good show Gents, good show indeed.

                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                              • #90
                                BOC - Battery Operations Center

                                OBC - Officer Basic Course

                                I - Infantry

                                FA- FA Field Artillery

                                GFY - Go Fvck Yourself

                                You get the idea.....
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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