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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mihais View Post
    And 65 years ago Dai Li's agents tracked and killed the families of the pilots who flew that general's last flight. When I read that I had a glimpse of the 2001 incident and the loot the Chinese got from the US aircraft.

    This incident is different from that of 2001.If the Chinese try to intercept future flights,an escort can be added.The Chinese are in no position to do anything but politely ask the Americans to leave and lose face when they'll refuse.

    I'll defer to Xinhui and the Colonel on why the Chinese established this policy in the first place.
    leaving the right or wrong out of this, the Chinese tactic (right now) seems to increase the international attention on bringing Japan to ack' there is a disrupt over the Diaoyu islands. The disrupt (in the view of the Chinese, both PRC and ROC) will go no where and it has gotten no where for the last 50 years.

    As a side note, Japan has a ADIZ setup over those island already in place. (see map)
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    • #17
      I wouldn't be surprised if there were a couple of F-22's out of Andersen shadowing the B-52's to the east as they overflew the islands; the B-52's would be a MUCH bigger radar target than the F-22's.
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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      • #18
        well, the chinese have now guaranteed that the entire area is now sub country - it's already like an underwater version of UN in the region - now they've made it a permanent feature.

        I wouldn't want to be a chinese skimmer launching a missile.............

        quite frankly its bad posturing on their part and they've now backed themselves into a corner where 4 of the players in the region will never be prepared to lose face.

        even without the US in theatre they're not the big dog on capability....
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        • #19
          Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
          well, the chinese have now guaranteed that the entire area is now sub country - it's already like an underwater version of UN in the region - now they've made it a permanent feature.

          I wouldn't want to be a chinese skimmer launching a missile.............

          quite frankly its bad posturing on their part and they've now backed themselves into a corner where 4 of the players in the region will never be prepared to lose face.

          even without the US in theatre they're not the big dog on capability....
          we are in alignment here GF. In a way, Japan's game plan to see "trigger happy" reaction. In that case, they win be default.
          “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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          • #20
            Originally posted by xinhui View Post
            China protests U.S., Japan criticism of airspace move
            Sun, Nov 24 21:50 PM EST

            BEIJING (Reuters) - China's Defense Ministry said on Monday it had lodged formal protests with the U.S. and Japanese embassies in China after both countries criticized Beijing's plan to impose new rules on airspace over disputed waters in the East China Sea.

            The ministry said the criticism was unfounded and irresponsible. It also called on the United States to stop taking sides in the row with Japan over a group of uninhabited disputed islands in the East China Sea.
            Thanks for that post. The "formal" protest because someone criticized them and that such criticism (probably any criticism) was unfounded and irresponsible gave me my biggest laugh of the week so far.

            I look forward to more golden nuggets of humor :pop:

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            • #21
              So the plan is to see Japan back down,or else send their ships and planes into the fray.
              I don't follow the situation in detail,but that's not much of a plan.

              Xinhui,I don't understand what you mean by ''increasing international attention''.All the world knows about the dispute.However only the nations already involved are in any position to do anything.Diplomatically and economically everybody else has no wish to get involved.Militarily,nobody else is capable.
              So in the end,the Chinese master plan is to annoy Japan.But that leaves the initiative to the Japanese.
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              • #22
                The Chinese expect the Japanese to back down?

                Do they remember that during the cold war(1987) it was the Japanese that intercepted and fired at a Soviet Badger when it tried to enter Japanese airspace around Okinawa.

                Exposing Japanese first launch flares: 87 years Soviet aircraft warning - About China

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                  So the plan is to see Japan back down,or else send their ships and planes into the fray.
                  I don't follow the situation in detail,but that's not much of a plan.

                  Xinhui,I don't understand what you mean by ''increasing international attention''.All the world knows about the dispute.However only the nations already involved are in any position to do anything.Diplomatically and economically everybody else has no wish to get involved.Militarily,nobody else is capable.
                  So in the end,the Chinese master plan is to annoy Japan.But that leaves the initiative to the Japanese.
                  To force the Japanese government to acknowledge there is a dispute: While ownership of the islands is well played in Koreas, ROC and ROK public, it is completely ignored by the Japanese government because the Japanese public as well as the their government consider "governorship" as de facto "ownership". That is my view on what the Chinese latest move is trying to achieve ( not saying it is a good move or not)
                  Last edited by xinhui; 27 Nov 13,, 03:19.
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                  • #24
                    what they're also seeking is proxy acceptance of their authority - ie if airlines are complying then they are by association acknowledging the authority of the chinese govt to act in this way.
                    its another way of building up "evidence" of ownership
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                      well, the chinese have now guaranteed that the entire area is now sub country - it's already like an underwater version of UN in the region - now they've made it a permanent feature.
                      Wasn't it already sub country?

                      Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                      quite frankly its bad posturing on their part and they've now backed themselves into a corner where 4 of the players in the region will never be prepared to lose face.
                      Whilst the b52 move can be seen as some humiliating push back. The chinese had been making a mockery of the Japanese ADIZ in the area.

                      The chinese are playing the long game and this move is just part of their cabbage strategy.

                      I happen to see the US reaction as almost entirely predictable. You can see that the ADIZ is already having an affect.

                      Japan's airlines to obey contentious China ADIZ rules | The Japan Times

                      Despite the rhetoric, do you really want to fly on a plane that doesn't comply with this new ADIZ?

                      Can the japanese still maintain that there is no dispute of the islands?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by gf0012-aust View Post
                        what they're also seeking is proxy acceptance of their authority - ie if airlines are complying then they are by association acknowledging the authority of the chinese govt to act in this way.
                        its another way of building up "evidence" of ownership
                        So was it a good move or a bad move?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by winton View Post
                          So was it a good move or a bad move?
                          I think its politically inept - and to me suggests a hawk at work rather than a moderate.

                          there are broader issues hilighted beyond this immediate "decree"

                          analyse the sausage - not the sizzle
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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by winton View Post
                            So was it a good move or a bad move?
                            It's a genius move. Now the US is pushed to the front and the chance of accidental war is much smaller between the US and China.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by winton View Post
                              Wasn't it already sub country?
                              it doesn't matter how busy the highway was before - its about what everyone will do to stay effective.

                              even the chinese can't be oblivious to the fact that the fastest growing sub fleets in the world are coming out of the pacific and its nethers. they've bought attention to themselves - and bang for buck they have invited discord when it wasn't necessary


                              Originally posted by winton View Post

                              Whilst the b52 move can be seen as some humiliating push back. The chinese had been making a mockery of the Japanese ADIZ in the area.
                              Hardly, they've successfully managed to start turning one of the most peaceful countries since the end of WW2 into a country that now realises that soft words aren't respected and that the chinese will turn off and on anti-japanese sentiment when it suits them - so in case you haven't realised the japanese are starting to change. it might be too subtle for some to realise, but their tolerance has worn thin.

                              Originally posted by winton View Post
                              The chinese are playing the long game and this move is just part of their cabbage strategy.
                              do you think that the chinese are the only asians with a long strategy? welcome to hubris

                              Originally posted by winton View Post

                              I happen to see the US reaction as almost entirely predictable. You can see that the ADIZ is already having an affect.
                              and there will be others who will exercise their right to transit - and not accept their authority. Its pretty stupid to paint yourself into a corner - good luck shooting at a US asset, lets see how far that works for them


                              Originally posted by winton View Post

                              Japan's airlines to obey contentious China ADIZ rules | The Japan Times

                              Despite the rhetoric, do you really want to fly on a plane that doesn't comply with this new ADIZ?

                              Can the japanese still maintain that there is no dispute of the islands?
                              and despite the link you provided, Japans 2 x largest carriers have just announced that they won't comply.

                              the chinese will do their usual bit and start to turn economic screws and then wonder why the countries that they seek to get on their side look rapidly to the west - and funnily enough thats whats been happening in recent times - Nobody in the region except the chinese want the US to leave the PACRIM - in fact they are increasing their engagement with the US. and the US mil

                              the japanese don't have to do or say anything - chinas behaviour is just creating a bigger catalyst for them to be seen as aggrieved.

                              lets use another example of an example of moral authority - china has a poor reputation for assisting the neighbours (Indonesia 2004, Philippines 2013) whereas Japan has been a consistent supporter of countries in stress - guess who the neighbours remember ?

                              Japan has never exercised her economic strength to get her way, whereas china always implies that trade will be affected when she doesn't get her way.....

                              when you have a poor reputation for assistance and you are the second largest economic power in the world - then everything you do is seen in the context of international goodwill and responsibility.

                              This is just another example of dumb decision making.
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                              • #30
                                Hardly, they've successfully managed to start turning one of the most peaceful countries since the end of WW2 into a country that now realises that soft words aren't respected and that the chinese will turn off and on anti-japanese sentiment when it suits them - so in case you haven't realised the japanese are starting to change. it might be too subtle for some to realise, but their tolerance has worn thin.
                                that I have to disagree. Japanese military buildup, especially its naval and airforce is the strongest in North Asia started way before the current round of dispute with China. Look no farther than how South Korean view their dispute with japan and where its naval force is pointing to, it is a direct response to the Japanese SD navy. They do carry a bit stick like you already hinted at in some of your posts.

                                Japan has never exercised her economic strength to get her way,
                                again, I have a different impression recalling what happened in the 1980s.
                                Last edited by xinhui; 27 Nov 13,, 05:15.
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