China-Tibet Threads

[anil]

The insurgency in the north east has little to do with chinese support. That region sticks out like a sore thumb. If it weren't the chinese, the insurgents would have found some other country for military training and financial support.

Some hundred years ago, the han chinese seem to have been on hostile terms with these people for some reason. They were chased away from south china and many of them were forced to cross the himalayas and finally took refuge in the hills in north east which still remain remote and isolated areas in modern india. They have been fighting with indian forces for almost a century.

Some guy from some university calls these regions as "zomia" - the people from the hills.



Read on this link
The Undiscovered Country - NYTimes.com

[lemontree]

Good stuff. I didn't know China's support for northeast insurgencies was so widespread. In reply, how could the RAW only manage to arm the Karens in Burma? There was enough diversity in Yunnan and enough devastation from the Cultural Revolution in the 1970s to foment a few insurgencies. A wasted opportunity IMO.

The Karens were the main group that harmed the Burmese military and they were used to disuade the Burmese from giving anti-Indian groups any base. It worked.

However, Burma is still a source for military equipment for many rebel groups.

[anil]

Tibetans: Chinese Police Shot Dalai Lama Birthday Celebrants



Why do they do these things?

[antimony]

Tibetans: Chinese Police Shot Dalai Lama Birthday Celebrants



Why do they do these things?

Maybe because they bought Glocks? I am sure some one with a 1911 would have far more sense.

[Officer of Engineers]

Why do they do these things?

You charge up a hill with an armed blocking force, ignoring all demands to stop, including warning shots (I don't believe for one second this reporter), and you're determined not to stop. What does it look like from the other side? A car trying to ram you. I would have shot too.

[anil]

I have actually read some crazy things about the treatment doled out to the tibetans by the chinese military in trustworthy news sources.

A knife for a knife and a gun for a gun, right?

But brute force projection of military, pointless clampdowns and humiliation as a counter against determination and will power? this doesn't make sense.

I was talking about nation building and the maintenance of territorial integrity without the need of military occupation.

The paks are illogical players but I see policy similarity between the way the paks and the chinese handle their ethnic territory. But if the chinese are logical players, I fail to see the machiavellianism here because if they keep this up, they're not only going to loose tibet(more quickly) in the long run but they're also going to turn them against itself.

[Officer of Engineers]

I have actually read some crazy things about the treatment doled out to the tibetans by the chinese military in trustworthy news sources.

A knife for a knife and a gun for a gun, right?

And most of it is kung fu. Tibetan pole staff against police batons.

But brute force projection of military, pointless clampdowns and humiliation as a counter against determination and will power? this doesn't make sense.

Numbers don't make sense. 90% of Tibet's population is still ethnic Tibetan according to the last census and they control 90% of the territory. BTW, this incident is not even within Tibet itself but actual Chinese territory. This means that 90% of Tibet is not being watched by the PLA.

[anil]

This means that 90% of Tibet is not being watched by the PLA.

I'm not sure because they try ridiculously hard to remove traces of the dalai lama or tibet. It's sometimes funny and sometimes very shocking too.

And most of it is kung fu.

That's what I was saying. These people are not your average insurgents with AKs and land mines. They are weapon-less yet the chinese are paranoid about them.

I think the chinese are fully aware of their position in tibet. They probably know exactly that they are on foreign territory. The question is, if they are not trying to win over tibetans hearts then what do they plan to do with tibet?

IMO, tibet is a buffer zone between india and china. What do you think?

[Officer of Engineers]

I'm not sure because they try ridiculously hard to remove traces of the dalai lama or tibet. It's sometimes funny and sometimes very shocking too.

Only on the surface and they don't try that hard. To go to a temple. Walk through and if they see something obvious, they take it down but they don't go through every closet or lift every veil. The monks sees them coming, they put a veil over the DL's picture. They leave. They take off the veil. It's not like they ransack every nook and cranny. The cops know there are DL pics there. The monks know the cops know there are DL pics there. As long as everybody plays by the rules, nobody gets hurt. It's only when the monks are defiant and openly display the DL pics, whatever, that forces the cops to act.

That's what I was saying. These people are not your average insurgents with AKs and land mines. They are weapon-less yet the chinese are paranoid about them.

There is no paranoia. Otherwise, you will see APCs with fully loaded weapons on every corner. The rules are everybody sticks to kung fu. Swords are even forbidden. Pole staff against baton.

I think the chinese are fully aware of their position in tibet. They probably know exactly that they are on foreign territory. The question is, if they are not trying to win over tibetans hearts then what do they plan to do with tibet?

They're winning more than you know. I used to buy into the myth that Han and Hui are slowly displacing the local ethnic Tibetan population, ie outnumbering them. Then I read the census. 90% of Tibet's population are still Tibetans and most of the non-Tibetans are located in the two main cities. That means 90% of the Tibetans controlling 90% of Tibet don't really care for independence. They might not like Chinese rule and they might even like the idea of the DL returning to power but they're not doing anything about it.

The DL and his monks are full of shit. The numbers don't support him. Tibet should be a hell of a lot more unstable if Tibetans really wants independence.

IMO, tibet is a buffer zone between india and china. What do you think?

Four group armies in the Chengdu MR is what I think.

[anil]

Q: Do you know how the paks lost the love from majority kashmiris and kashmir?
A: By turning kashmir into a warzone through insurgency

Muslim kashmir didn't have a common ground with hindu india until the paks began a blunder of a policy in the 90s which actually worked in indias favour.

India is a union consisting of more than 2 dozen ethnic and several racial groups. We have more secessionist groups operating in india than any other state in asia. Nation building(in this part of the world) is a 100+ year process. Our effort has been to keep history "uneventful" with the insurgents as much as possible. We've tried our luck by giving autonomy to secessionists but it has only managed to calm them down a bit but the demand for separate state still exists. We've organized ceasefires. We actually let these insurgents run wild in their own territory as long as they don't step outside their territory. Some of them run a virtual dictatorship(organized crime) by rigging polls though it has managed to keep history "uneventful" for india. Our hope is with the next generation of adults from these regions who have been travelling all across india and the world so we think it'll be more easy for us to talk to rather than their current fathers and grandfathers who had lived in a period where india had just started to understand nation building and our old politicians believed in fist rather than brain. Today's india has changed dramatically. We understand that we have to let some things run its course.

You see, our secessionists don't actually want autonomy. But we imposed autonomy on them anyway to make peace and buy more time. What they really want is a nation that they can call home. They want to feel that they truly belong to this nation. This is true nation building and it is not a 2 or 10 yr process. It takes generations.

What I'm trying to say is that china is several decades behind when it comes to "nation building" - ie incorporating tibets people into china. In fact, I don't see any desire. Pakistan is a nation in-exile so bengalis, balochis or pashtuns never mattered to them in the first place. But what about china? The history between china and tibet has been "eventful" and continues to be "eventful". I'm asking, has history been so "eventful" that it is no longer possible to incorporate tibet into china?

At this point, I look at tibet and china the way I look at pakistan and afghanistan.

Pakistan is in afghanistan because it thinks it will flip
Similarly, china is in tibet too because it thinks it will flip also

The difference is that pakistan controls afghanistan though proxies while china controls tibet through military occupation

[Officer of Engineers]

The difference is that pakistan controls afghanistan though proxies while china controls tibet through military occupation

No, China controls Tibet by being Tibet's rice basket and economic life line.

Say what you want about the CCP but the quality of life, life expectancy, and economic future never looked brighter with them than ever under the monks.

[anil]

Colonel, I'm trying to give you an evaluation of our experiments with dozen different secessionists. We did it for around 50 years. Economics, politics, autonomy etc we done 'em all. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY WANTED!! This realisation has forced us to make drastic(bizarre) changes in our policy.

The problem is that people have not stared at this map for long enough to accurately figure things out

[Officer of Engineers]

Colonel, I'm trying to give you an evaluation of our experiments with dozen different secessionists. We did it for around 50 years. Economics, politics, autonomy etc we done 'em all. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY WANTED!! This realisation has forced us to make drastic(bizarre) changes in our policy.

Who cares what they want?

The problem is that people have not stared at this map for long enough to accurately figure things out

That's not the problem. The problem is are they going to do anything about it? So far, the Tibetans ain't doing shit all.

[Tronic]

We actually let these insurgents run wild in their own territory as long as they don't step outside their territory. Some of them run a virtual dictatorship(organized crime) by rigging polls though it has managed to keep history "uneventful" for india.

To be fair, that's been more of an Indian central government's tactic. Kashmir elections in 1987 were rigged by the Indian government (which started the Kashmir insurgency in the first place). While, the Punjab government which came to power by over 60% turnout was deposed and in the re-elections held in 1992, the Congress party claimed to "sweep" Punjab's elections with a voter turnout of less than 10%, and the choice to elect only 1 party.

Only hinterland India's history has been "uneventful". Ask anyone living in the periphery states, from the North West to the North East; it's been anything but uneventful. ;)

The problem is that people have not stared at this map for long enough to accurately figure things out

What am I looking at?

[ambidex]

To be fair, that's been more of an Indian central government's tactic. Kashmir elections in 1987 were rigged by the Indian government (which started the Kashmir insurgency in the first place).

That was bad on GoI's part.

While, the Punjab government which came to power by over 60% turnout was deposed

That was very bad on GoI's part, no doubt about it.

and in the re-elections held in 1992, the Congress party claimed to "sweep" Punjab's elections with a voter turnout of less than 10%, and the choice to elect only 1 party.

That worked, isn't it ?

That was great move by GoI. I will always like to see a government 'imposed' this way when hostility is high and boycott of the Union is prevalent. Those who were boycotting are sitting in LA and enjoying the power today. Back to normal.