Illegal Downloading and File Sharing is Good for the Economy

**bigross86** · 04 Dec 11, 11:49

Swiss gov't study: downloading leads to sales, so we're keeping it legal

By Cory Doctorow at 9:39 am Saturday, Dec 3
The Swiss government commissioned a study on the impact of copyright-infringing downloading. The independent study concluded that downloaders use the money they spend to buy more legitimate entertainment products. So they've concluded to maintain Switzerland's extant copyright law, which makes downloading for personal use legal. It's a rare victory for evidence-based policy in a world dominated by shrill assertions of lost jobs and revenue, backed by funny-number "statistics" from industry-commissioned researchers.

The report states that around a third of Swiss citizens over 15 years old download pirated music, movies and games from the Internet. However, these people don’t spend less money as a result because the budgets they reserve for entertainment are fairly constant. This means that downloading is mostly complementary.

The other side of piracy, based on the Dutch study, is that downloaders are reported to be more frequent visitors to concerts, and game downloaders actually bought more games than those who didn’t. And in the music industry, lesser-know bands profit most from the sampling effect of file-sharing.

The Swiss report then goes on to review several of the repressive anti-piracy laws and regulations that have been implemented in other countries recently, such as the three-strikes Hadopi law in France. According to the report 12 million was spent on Hadopi in France this year, a figure the Swiss deem too high.

The report further states that it is questionable whether a three-strikes law would be legal in the first place, as the UN’s Human Rights Council labeled Internet access a human right. The Council specifically argued that Hadopi is a disproportionate law that should be repealed.

**Wooglin** · 04 Dec 11, 19:04

The independent study concluded that downloaders use the money they spend to buy more legitimate entertainment products.

More legitimate products? Music, games, and movies are less legitimate entertainment products?

The other side of piracy, based on the Dutch study, is that downloaders are reported to be more frequent visitors to concerts, and game downloaders actually bought more games than those who didn’t. And in the music industry, lesser-know bands profit most from the sampling effect of file-sharing.

Some twisted logic here. Seems like a correlation = causation leap to me. I'd like to see how they determined this. It's not much of a surprise to me, for instance, that gamers buy more games, and it seems gamers would also be most likely to download.

And I find the idea that the guy who won't drop 99 cents on a single will happily drop a couple hundred on a concert ticket a little hard to swallow.

**Mihais** · 04 Dec 11, 19:14

Why not?The concert is the real deal.

What's interesting is that traditional forms of entertainment retain their value and their place.That's good and something I observed myself.The more modern ways are somehow taken for granted.

**bigross86** · 04 Dec 11, 19:17

More legitimate products? Music, games, and movies are less legitimate entertainment products?

Not more as in a question of more or less legitimate, but more as in they will buy more of the legal products.

And I find the idea that the guy who won't drop 99 cents on a single will happily drop a couple hundred on a concert ticket a little hard to swallow.

I like the Scorpions and I download their songs. Can't say I've ever bought a single CD of theirs or bought a single song online. I still forked out 500 NIS to go watch them live. The Boss and the Chili Peppers are both coming to Israel next summer. I probably won't go to the Peppers but I definitely hope to go see the Boss, even though I've never ever bought a CD of his, either.

The fact of the matter is, most people today aren't buying CDs anymore. Over the summer I bought my first CD in over a decade, it was the album of a band that I was introduced to and really like. I've been to almost a dozen of their concerts already and am going to another one in just over 2 weeks. I know some of the fellas in the band, so I won't download their stuff. Bruce? He'll get my money when I buy tickets for his show

**bigross86** · 04 Dec 11, 19:19

Originally Posted by Mihais

Why not?The concert is the real deal.

What's interesting is that traditional forms of entertainment retain their value and their place.That's good and something I observed myself.The more modern ways are somehow taken for granted.

I've been dying for years to pillage and plunder my dad's garage and see what kind of vinyl he's got laying around. The problem is that his garage is full with shite and there's no real way of discovering where he's hidden his records. If he does have some good vinyl, I'm gonna be stealing it and buying myself a phonograph to play them

**Mihais** · 04 Dec 11, 19:36

You and I are freaks.We're born too late.

**YellowFever** · 04 Dec 11, 19:48

Originally Posted by bigross86

I've been dying for years to pillage and plunder my dad's garage and see what kind of vinyl he's got laying around. The problem is that his garage is full with shite and there's no real way of discovering where he's hidden his records. If he does have some good vinyl, I'm gonna be stealing it and buying myself a phonograph to play them

I had a chance to raid my uncle's vinyl collection a few months ago and, lo and behold, I found the entire collection of the Eagles, Most of the records the Beatles put out, a few Kansas albums, a Lynyrd Skynyrd, the soundtrack from "Saturday Night Fever" and a signed copy of the Simon and Garfunkel classics, most of them in excellent condition.

Needless to say, I managed to talk him into giving them to me.

All it costed me is an Ipod with those exact same songs.

Not a bad way to spend an afternoon, Benny. I highly recommend it.

**Wooglin** · 04 Dec 11, 20:10

Originally Posted by bigross86

Not more as in a question of more or less legitimate, but more as in they will buy more of the legal products.

Ah, I see. Makes more sense. Thanks.

I like the Scorpions and I download their songs. Can't say I've ever bought a single CD of theirs or bought a single song online. I still forked out 500 NIS to go watch them live. The Boss and the Chili Peppers are both coming to Israel next summer. I probably won't go to the Peppers but I definitely hope to go see the Boss, even though I've never ever bought a CD of his, either.

The fact of the matter is, most people today aren't buying CDs anymore. Over the summer I bought my first CD in over a decade, it was the album of a band that I was introduced to and really like. I've been to almost a dozen of their concerts already and am going to another one in just over 2 weeks. I know some of the fellas in the band, so I won't download their stuff. Bruce? He'll get my money when I buy tickets for his show

But this isn't about not buying CD's. It's make the argument that those who steal the music attend concerts more frequently. Seems like a leap in logic to me. I'd like to see how they determined cause here because I don't think it flies.

**USSWisconsin** · 04 Dec 11, 21:14

They've taken the copyright thing way too far IMO. While someone who is freely distrubuting copyrighted stuff should have something to fear, an indiviidual who downloaded for personal use should not. And for profit piracy is what should be prosecuted. The idea of going after someone, in their own home, for downloading a song and listening to it has lead me to boycott the music recording industry - if they want to be nazi's - they can do it with their own money. 15 to 20 years back; businesses had something to fear by pirating software, but students or home users didn't. Sales were booming - look at Microsoft and the music industry - they aren't exactly poverty stricken. Since they've implemented the big brother, personal search agenda, they have only gained in contempt from their former or reluctant customers.

**bigross86** · 04 Dec 11, 21:21

Whiskey, I'm taking a course on this exact topic, copyright law and how it applies to digital media and intellectual property, among others. Interestingly, the US Congress put a price tag of up to $150,000 for every song indicted for, but two separate judges in 2 separate cases have taken damages awarded by juries to the RIAA and record companies and slashed them by 90%, declaring the high fees unconstitutional and against the 8 Amendment to the US Constitution forbidding excessive fines and cruel and unusual punishment.

**jtbv** · 22 Jan 12, 21:41

A Dutch judge recently decided that several Dutch Internet providers have to block the pirate Bay for their users. I wonder how this develops.
When I look around at the people around me, those that download usually spend the money that they save on entirely different things then games, movies, music etc.

**Red Team** · 23 Jan 12, 03:22

Massed downloading/file sharing = Free publicity = $$$

I wonder if music industry is taking a hint, that business sense alone can save millions on advertising.

**troung** · 23 Jan 12, 03:51

Can't say I've ever bought a single CD of theirs or bought a single song online...The fact of the matter is, most people today aren't buying CDs anymore. Over the summer I bought my first CD in over a decade, it was the album of a band that I was introduced to and really like. I've been to almost a dozen of their concerts already and am going to another one in just over 2 weeks. I know some of the fellas in the band, so I won't download their stuff. Bruce? He'll get my money when I buy tickets for his show

Spare me - you are stealing plain and simple. A federal power grab is a bad thing but people illegally downloading music are going out of their way to break the law. It's easy not to illegally download music.

I don't care much for overpaid/undereducated actors and musicians either nor do I wish to further expand their rights but the noble online pirate thing is just BS.

**Dago** · 23 Jan 12, 05:28

How does Megaupload.com domain get seized as well as as well as 150+

Spoiler!

domains that were selling "fake" coach bags, yet the wikileaks and if anyone has ever used a torrent know that www.piratebay.com is 100 times larger then megaupload remain open and operating?

In any case this IP (http://109.236.83.66/) is saying it's the new address for megaupload. I am not sure if this is legit or not, but it will be back open, away from American jurisdiction.

In any case, I guess the coach executives and the rich class have more at stake with those fake coach domains then closing down a site leaking classified documents? It's quite amazing, where America places it's damn priority, essentially over money. Instead of say sites that leak classified documents.

How do you guys feel about the .com and .org being administered by the US Government by Verisign? Do you think these domains should be administered by an international organization so US Government officials can't seize such domains? If not, I am sure the international community will come up with an alternative .com and .org.

See the issue is they are revoking domain names, and they can only seize domains which are in there jurisdiction, they can't seize foreign domains. The .com and .org are administered by verisign and that is how they are seizing said domains, if it is hosted overseas you can still use the ip address to locate said sites.

Edit: That is weird, I just popped in a url and now says download music, videos etc etc... how does that work? Does this board have some sort of hyper linking like facebook lol! I just want to be able to post a URL link! And I also just posted a ip address weird...

**Dago** · 23 Jan 12, 07:05

P2P DNS to take on ICANN after US domain seizures

21 Comments
TAGS:alternative DNS system, BitTorrent, dhs, DNS, domain name, domain name seizures, Dot-P2P, EFF, government regulation, Homeland Security, ICANN, ICE, intellectual property rights, P2P, P2P DNS, security
IT TOPICS:Government & Regulation, Infrastructure Management, Internet, Networking, Security
Should the Internet be controlled by the government? Or can former backers of The Pirate Bay circumvent law enforcement efforts to sheriff the Net and instead come up with an open and secure P2P DNS alternative system?

After DHS and the U.S. Department of Justice seized 82 domain names during "Operation In Our Sites II" and shut down those websites that the government said were selling and distributing counterfeit goods and illegal copyrighted works, the EFF called the government actions a "glimpse at the Draconian future of copyright enforcement." If Congress passes Combating Online Infringement and Counterfeits Act (COICA), then its "nuclear-option" design will allow the government to blacklist entire sites out of the domain name system. EFF states that this would be "a reckless scheme that will undermine global Internet infrastructure and censor legitimate online speech." Is this really the best use of DHS resources? Another good point the EFF makes is that the seized sites were back up and running at other domain names within a few hours.

While some people cheer the government domain seizures, others call the government taking over ICANN, "a direct attack against vital Internet infrastructure." In fact, some people go so far as to say ICANN is dead. According We Rebuild DNS Wiki page, "We cannot longer [sic] trust there to be one synchronized perfect root for DNS. This has been the standard which we've gotten ourselves used to since the dawn of the world wide web but has now been made only a dream by politicians. We can however make the best out of the DNS system, bringing back the power over Internet infrastructure to the Internet itself."

ICANN is supposed to manage IPv4 and IPv6 Internet Protocol address spaces, DNS root zone (root nameservers), with primary principles to help preserve "operational stability of the Internet" and to "promote competition," states Wikipedia.

Attorney General Eric Holder announced, "By seizing these domain names, we have disrupted the sale of thousands of counterfeit items, while also cutting off funds to those willing to exploit the ingenuity of others for their own personal gain. Intellectual property crimes are not victimless. The theft of ideas and the sale of counterfeit goods threaten economic opportunities and financial stability, suppress innovation and destroy jobs."

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Director John Morton said, "The sale of counterfeit U.S. brands on the Internet steals the creative work of others, costs our economy jobs and revenue and can threaten the health and safety of American consumers." Morton added that it's a top priority for Homeland Security Investigations.

Peter Sunde, formerly of The Pirate Bay, is certainly not the only person who has lost a domain and his trust in ICANN, but he did something about it. Sunde tweeted, "Hello all #isp of the world. We're going to add a new competing root-server since we're tired of #ICANN. Please contact me to help."

In a couple days, an alternate DNS blog was born. P2P DNS states, "A small tweet turned into a lot of interest. We haven't organized yet, but trying to. The background for this project is that we want the internet to be uncensored! Having a centralized system that controls our information flow is not acceptable. By using existing technology for de-centralization together with already having a crew with skilled programmers, communicators and network specialists, an alternative system is not far away. We're not going to re-invent the wheel, we're going to build on existing technology as much as possible."

The Dot-P2P project is not filesharing, but peer-to-peer exchanged DNS data which is both open and secure. According to Dot-P2P goals, "By creating a .p2p TLD that is totally decentralized and that does not rely on ICANN or any ISP's DNS service, and by having this application mimic force-encrypted BitTorrent traffic, there will be a way to start combating DNS level based censoring like the new US proposals as well as those systems in use in countries around the world including China and Iran amongst others."

AlterNIC tried and failed to be an alternate DNS root. Some people applauded the effort while others branded it as harmful. Will Dot-P2P gain support? If interested in a P2P DNS, you can also read more at DNS-P2P Brainstorm or the IRC channel that EZTV tweeted. You can say or feel what you want about The Pirate Bay, but many people loved it. There is a good chance many will support a BitTorrent-based DNS after the U.S. governments' latest domain seizures. Are you rooting for Dot-P2P?

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