Thread: Stop Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Yes, unfortunately agent Smiths script writers don't know shit about mammals. Or marsupials.

Well, I think it is the "instinctively" that the script got wrong.

Other than that, Snow Leopards and Mice don't reproduce at the same rate, and there are reasons for that.

On the other hand, Humans are supposed to be a least partly rational, and in fact can calculate some consequences of their actions, yet way too often we behave like the most predatory kind of parasites. Like Viruses.

Because of the hurry I cited more than I needed. What I really wanted to express is simply:

you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

In the World today, overpopulation is the root cause of famines, and all kinds of environmental issues, and quite a few social problems; it could even be argued that overpopulation is the root cause of most global problems.

Instead of fighting symptoms, changing that viral mentality would be the only true solution to Malthusian crisis, which is what seems to worry GM apologists, but then again: a self-imposed restriction on procreation seems to be the ultimate taboo.

Originally Posted by Oscar

And what are your suggestions to get rid of these viruses?

You don't need to get rid of viruses, just pop out less of them

Malthusianism has been proven wrong. Unlike viruses humans can create resources to sustain their current level of population and follow its curb ad infinitum until the earth falls "because we're too many".... In fact food prices fell, plus I'm sure you heard of demographic transitions.

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Yes, unfortunately agent Smiths script writers don't know shit about mammals. Or marsupials.

Dont get me started on F**king marsupials... Africa gets the strong proud interesting apex predators and we get glorified demi rats that can tear apart a backpack for the food it contains in seconds and then go and live in your roof and are impossible to remove... and to top it off its illegal to kill the bastards...

Rant: OFF

Originally Posted by Oscar

Malthusianism has been proven wrong.

Famines are generally nothing more than Malthusian checks

Unlike viruses humans can create resources to sustain their current level of population and follow its curb ad infinitum until the earth falls "because we're too many"

That's a Malthusian catastrophe

.... In fact food prices fell, plus I'm sure you heard of demographic transitions.

Let's try to hurry them up, we would avoid suffering.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Famines are generally nothing more than Malthusian checks

Famines are becoming increasingly rare. In fact they may be about to disappear while in the same time, world population has quadrupled.

That's a Malthusian catastrophe

Neither do current agricultural practices cause a more substantial damage to the environement than the older ones. They are more efficient and sometimes less polluting in fact.

Let's try to hurry them up, we would avoid suffering.

A world where everyone would be over 50 would be such a fantastic world indeed. Unless you suggest that people at a certain age should be obliged to take the magic pill.

Originally Posted by Oscar

Famines are becoming increasingly rare. In fact they may be about to disappear while in the same time, world population has quadrupled.

There is some truth in that.

Regardless, millions and millions of people around the world often go to sleep hungry.

And I wouldn't discard future large scale famines at all.

I'm no expert. But among other issues, it worries me the pressure on the Oceans.

Like the Dwarfs in Moria, we might be digging too deep...so to speak. Same goes for GM food.

Neither do current agricultural practices cause a more substantial damage to the environement than the older ones. They are more efficient and sometimes less polluting in fact.

Conceded.

A world where everyone would be over 50 would be such a fantastic world indeed. Unless you suggest that people at a certain age should be obliged to take the magic pill.

2006 6.5 billion

projected...

2020 7.6 billion

2030 8.2 billion

.....

To me that looks like a jammed highway to hell.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Yes, but that is a different issue. In all those countries food supply is ample, and actually relatively cheap.

So why would you want to introduce GM crops?

Increase supply will decrease prices, and/or reduce land devoted to farming. More space toward other productive activities, or just open country side and living spaces.

Another reason, more production has an impact on world prices. Look at the US ethanol debacle. We burned our food as fuel. Corn prices skyrocketed. It diverted other farm land to produce corn (increased prices for other food items) and affected those who can least afford food.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Why would you run the commercial, environmental and health risks associated?

Who has died from GM food? I have no idea why euros are so paranoid about GM food.

Originally Posted by Castellano

so that farmers have better margins?

If anything, GM food reduces the margin for farmers because it increase production.

Originally Posted by Castellano

what is the rationale here?

Efficiency. Why pay more for less? I understand environmentalists love to pay more for less. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by Castellano

I'm actually not dogmatically against GM food in any time or circumstance, but it has to be very, very well justified.

I think efficiency is a pretty good reason. Fewer people and less land need to work to produce food. Less chemicals used to control pests and fertilize the soil = good for the environment.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Let's forget for a minute the cause of overpopulation.

I cited Ethiopia. I'm talking by memory but I believe this data to be aprox. correct:

During the 80s famine the population in Ethiopia was around 40 million. In only 20 years, and even with a large emigration out of the country, the population doubled to 80 million.

With this kind of numbers you can bet a famine is eventually coming like Christmas.

Sure enough, there were severe food shortages last year due to a combination of high oil prices and a drought. Wait a minute...due to?...you cannot really say it was caused by the drought, which is a natural event every x-years in the area.

The real cause of the famine is overpopulation, and it can only get worse, the more population there is. The environment is a finite resource, and ultimately, the solution will have to tackle the root cause.

Easy, stop helping them. There won't be overpopulation if a huge chunk of the population die off.

Originally Posted by Castellano

GM food can perhaps artificially stretch the margin and buy some time, I say perhaps because GM food is troublesome on several levels; but even assuming everything goes smoothly (:P private joke) with GM food, until when can it be stretched?

You assume technology makes zero progress.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Until 40 years from now when Ethiopia could have maybe a population of 320 million?

Is that reasonable?

Of course not. There are other constraints than food.

Originally Posted by Castellano

If the root cause is not tackled, and even assuming GM food does not create foreseen or unforeseen problems, a Malthusian catastrophe sooner or later is unavoidable.

Moreover, and returning to the cause of overpopulation, I would submit that overpopulation is not a consequence, but very often a cause of War.

The cause of overpopulation itself is mainly cultural. That's why a self-imposed restriction on procreation seems to be ultimate taboo.

It seems to me your fear of overpopulation and the Malthusian theory wants you to reduce food supply and starve the excess population to death.

You are still not looking at the "overpopulation" problem by region.

Europe DOES NOT have an overpopulation problem.

Japan DOES NOT have an overpopulation problem.

All the industrialized nations DO NOT have an overpopulation problem.

You somehow want to curb overpopulation in Africa by stop having children in Europe.

Originally Posted by Castellano

There is some truth in that.

Regardless, millions and millions of people around the world often go to sleep hungry.

Yet you want to decrease food supply.

Originally Posted by Castellano

And I wouldn't discard future large scale famines at all.

Yet you want to decrease food supply.

Originally Posted by Castellano

I'm no expert. But among other issues, it worries me the pressure on the Oceans.

Yet you want to decrease food supply.

Originally Posted by Castellano

Like the Dwarfs in Moria, we might be digging too deep...so to speak. Same goes for GM food.

I don't get this reference.

Originally Posted by Castellano

2006 6.5 billion

projected...

2020 7.6 billion

2030 8.2 billion

.....

To me that looks like a jammed highway to hell.

Where is this growth projected? I can tell you it's not in Japan. Japan is losing people. It won't be in western Europe. Western European women birth rate is way below the replacement ratio, although not as bad as Japanese. You can wipe out the entire European continent and the total human population of the planet will still increase.