Climate Change is real!!!!!!!!!

**gunnut** · 17 Jun 07,, 04:59

We all agree that conservation is good. We should do what we can and not waste our resources.

The problem is there's a faction of people, mostly liberal socialists, who want to impose their belief on us.

They believe we should conserve because we are choking this planet to death, global warming, ice age, whatever, and they are all caused by man. They force this belief onto us by passing laws that they think will reverse this trend.

It's the hallmark of socialism - social engineering.

Compounding this problem is their complete ignorance of basic economics. The best way to compel people to use less of something is to let it become scarce and expensive. Gasoline is getting expensive, which should be good for the liberals. However, they are the ones who scream the loudest about expensive gas. They want cheap gas, but then pass laws to make us use less. If there's an emoticon of a face banging against the wall, I'd post it here.

We conservative/libertarians believe we should let market force and appeal to people's good conscience to conserve energy. If you want to waste energy and can afford it, be my guest. If you conserve for whatever the reason, great. I thank you. We will not force people to believe something.

**Parihaka** · 17 Jun 07,, 11:44

Originally Posted by gunnut

We all agree that conservation is good. We should do what we can and not waste our resources.

The problem is there's a faction of people, mostly liberal socialists, who want to impose their belief on us.

They believe we should conserve because we are choking this planet to death, global warming, ice age, whatever, and they are all caused by man. They force this belief onto us by passing laws that they think will reverse this trend.

It's the hallmark of socialism - social engineering.

Compounding this problem is their complete ignorance of basic economics. The best way to compel people to use less of something is to let it become scarce and expensive. Gasoline is getting expensive, which should be good for the liberals. However, they are the ones who scream the loudest about expensive gas. They want cheap gas, but then pass laws to make us use less. If there's an emoticon of a face banging against the wall, I'd post it here.

We conservative/libertarians believe we should let market force and appeal to people's good conscience to conserve energy. If you want to waste energy and can afford it, be my guest. If you conserve for whatever the reason, great. I thank you. We will not force people to believe something.

Exactly. In the marketplace, allow the market to work.

**zraver** · 17 Jun 07,, 18:19

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Exactly. In the marketplace, allow the market to work.

that begs thye question does the market work? Sometimes is assuredly does, other times like oil it doesn't. Oil prices are subject to a double price manipulation by interests that if anything other than oil would be crimminal.

Is global warming or some other type of climate change real? probalby and man probalby has a role in it however big or small it is. The earth is a forgiving place and has alot of built in durability but how much and for how long is a question and we have increased elvels of CO2, the Northern ice caps are melting to the point where the famed Northern Passage will soon be a nearly year round commercially vialb eshipping route (to the detriment of the Polar bears). Climate zones are shifting, and we are entering a new age of some sort. To rely on junk science (the science that doesn't agree with your PoV) is stupid. The nothing is goiung on or we can't change it crowd is jsut as blind as the Gorebals.

Something is going on (and I will take Dr. Gasconi's words over anyone on this board, he is after all the President of Woods Hole and a fellow of the American acedemy of Sciences) and its not good and if man is a cause or an accerlatant we have a duty to do something besides sticking our head in the sand.

**smalltexan** · 17 Jun 07,, 19:12

Originally Posted by zraver

that begs thye question does the market work? Sometimes is assuredly does, other times like oil it doesn't. Oil prices are subject to a double price manipulation by interests that if anything other than oil would be crimminal.

Is global warming or some other type of climate change real? probalby and man probalby has a role in it however big or small it is. The earth is a forgiving place and has alot of built in durability but how much and for how long is a question and we have increased elvels of CO2, the Northern ice caps are melting to the point where the famed Northern Passage will soon be a nearly year round commercially vialb eshipping route (to the detriment of the Polar bears). Climate zones are shifting, and we are entering a new age of some sort. To rely on junk science (the science that doesn't agree with your PoV) is stupid. The nothing is goiung on or we can't change it crowd is jsut as blind as the Gorebals.

Something is going on (and I will take Dr. Gasconi's words over anyone on this board, he is after all the President of Woods Hole and a fellow of the American acedemy of Sciences) and its not good and if man is a cause or an accerlatant we have a duty to do something besides sticking our head in the sand.

All one has to do is google glacier ice melt in South America to see some of the proof there is a DEFINITE PROBLEM. Water shortages will be a far greater concern than oil or gas. I think as soon as my late father's estate is settled, I'll be investing in water companies for my mother.

**Parihaka** · 17 Jun 07,, 19:26

Originally Posted by zraver

that begs thye question does the market work? Sometimes is assuredly does, other times like oil it doesn't. Oil prices are subject to a double price manipulation by interests that if anything other than oil would be crimminal.

No it's not, you just percieve oil as more important so see the price distortions more clearly than other commodities. The marketplace works best when unfettered and only in the marketplace.
Just like you have people who like interfering in the marketplace, you also have people who think the rules of the marketplace apply elsewhere, i.e. in social policy.
If a good is scarce and in high demand, it sells for a high price. If it is in very high demand, he with the biggest army controls its distribution. If the price gets to high, it prices itself out of the market.

I would remind you that wars were fought over pepper.

Originally Posted by zraver

Is global warming or some other type of climate change real?

of course it is. Anybody with even the vaguest brain can see that the weather/climate has been in constant change for as far back as our various scientific methods will allow us to peer. Deserts appear, forest disappear, five thousand feet of ice appears and disappears.

The glacier that shaped these hills is long gone, did it disappear because of Humans burning oil? Dinosaurs farting?
Why is it that we can accept dramatic climate change in the historical record, but not now? Why is it when Greenpeace posts some spurious photo of an old and new photo of a glacier people accept that any apparent changes must have been because of them?

Like I say, you want to get rid of oil, I'm not going to object, start up a hydrogen production plant in Iceland.

But don't tell me that dramatic climate change is new, and don't tell me that even one degree average change in a century is unusual. Because it just ain't so.

**Parihaka** · 17 Jun 07,, 19:37

Originally Posted by smalltexan

All one has to do is google glacier ice melt in South America to see some of the proof there is a DEFINITE PROBLEM. Water shortages will be a far greater concern than oil or gas. I think as soon as my late father's estate is settled, I'll be investing in water companies for my mother.

You are aware that the Fox and Franz Joseph glaciers in New Zealand are growing, aren't you?
And that Antarctica is getting colder?

**dalem** · 17 Jun 07,, 20:35

Originally Posted by Parihaka

You are aware that the Fox and Franz Joseph glaciers in New Zealand are growing, aren't you?
And that Antarctica is getting colder?

No no, Pari, not facts! Auuuuuggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!!

-dale

**gunnut** · 17 Jun 07,, 21:47

How much are the evil oil companies getting per gallon of gas? They opened their books for audit many times before. Every time there's a surge in gas price the idiots on the Hill want an investigation. There have been around 30 investigations over the last 10 years about how much the oil companies are making and if they're gouging the consumers. The answer has always been a resounding "no."

Oil companies make about 9% profit on a gallon of gas. Assuming the price we pay today is the real price of gas, then at $3.09 per gallon, the oil companies are making somewhere around $0.28 per gallon.

But here's where the story gets interesting.

There's a $0.19 tax per gallon by the federal government. There's also a $0.45+ tax per gallon by the state of California. Tax alone comes out to be $0.65+ per gallon.

$3.09 - $0.65 = $2.44

What the oil companies make is actually less than $0.28 per gallon since tax is added AFTER the cost.

Oil companies make roughly $0.22 per gallon.

Which is more criminal? 20% tax by the state? 9% profit by the EVIL oil companies? Or 4% tax by the feds?

Who's gouging?

**zraver** · 17 Jun 07,, 21:51

But don't tell me that dramatic climate change is new, and don't tell me that even one degree average change in a century is unusual. Because it just ain't so.

We are observing some of the most rapid change in climate of all time. It all happens to be paralleing our oil economy. While oil may not be the cause it might be. We have a duty to the rest of the lif eon this planet not to be obtuse and polarized over the poltics of the issue and instead fix the damn problem (if it is indeed a problem) not waste years in useles arguments to protect profits.

**chankya** · 17 Jun 07,, 21:52

Originally Posted by Parihaka

You are aware that the Fox and Franz Joseph glaciers in New Zealand are growing, aren't you?
And that Antarctica is getting colder?

Firstly IIRC NZ's glaciers are subject to waxing and waning cycles. I can't find sources and when I do I'll post them

Antractica is heating rapidly around the edges where the southern sea is and cooling in the center. Unfortunately I didn't really understand the explanation. When I figur eit out I'l llet you know.

**gunnut** · 17 Jun 07,, 22:21

Originally Posted by chankya

Firstly IIRC NZ's glaciers are subject to waxing and waning cycles. I can't find sources and when I do I'll post them

Antractica is heating rapidly around the edges where the southern sea is and cooling in the center. Unfortunately I didn't really understand the explanation. When I figur eit out I'l llet you know.

I don't think anyone understands how and why glaciers come and go.

The Greenland glaciers were in rapid retreat in the late 1990s or early 2000s, for a period of 2 years. Rev. Al took the data from these 2 years and extrapolated into the future. He conveniently discarded the new info which suggests the glaciers all of a sudden stopped shrinking, and in some cases, started to increase in size.

Earth does what earth wants. If it wants to warm up, it warms up. If it wants to cool down, there ain't nothing we can do about it. We're just along for the ride.

**dalem** · 17 Jun 07,, 22:41

Originally Posted by zraver

We are observing some of the most rapid change in climate of all time.

False. Resolution of paleoclimate becomes more and more fine as we approach the current time, therefore we see more fluctuations that are not present in the older records.

It all happens to be paralleing our oil economy. While oil may not be the cause it might be. We have a duty to the rest of the lif eon this planet not to be obtuse and polarized over the poltics of the issue and instead fix the damn problem (if it is indeed a problem) not waste years in useles arguments to protect profits.

So we have to spend money and time on YOUR personal bag of wishes? Because of maybes and mights? You can't even identify a related problem that needs addressing, let alone a way to address it.

-dale

**Parihaka** · 17 Jun 07,, 22:46

Originally Posted by chankya

Firstly IIRC NZ's glaciers are subject to waxing and waning cycles. I can't find sources and when I do I'll post them

They are indeed. Those particular two are tied to the El nino/La nina cycles, and are well understood, as are the South American glaciers. So why are people saying a naturally occurring cycle is tied to 'global warming'?

**Parihaka** · 17 Jun 07,, 22:48

More on some rather more famous glaciers
The Economist and the Greenpeace glacier photo stunt

**Parihaka** · 17 Jun 07,, 23:00

Despite glacial cycles being well understood and documented, notice greenpeace continues to use them as publicity stunts and 'proof' of global warming.
Take a look at this page.
Himalayan glacial melt | Greenpeace International
Examine especially the before and afters of the rongbuk glacier.
Notice that the 2007 photo is taken at least 15k further down a valley from the 1968 photo. It's easy to spot the difference when you look at the mountains, not the glacier, and see the mountains in the 68 photo are the most distant on the extreme right of the 2007 photo and the valley system shown in the 68 photo isn't even in shot.

Yep, that's science