Ctom3

I certainly won't argue whether or not you can see the difference since I am not there to look at them. I can draw one of only two conclusions. Your friend either has a really crummy new lamp or the old ones are magic. The fact that lamps degrade with age is an absolute that is both quantifiable and always part of a legitimate manufacturer's published lamp data. If you look up a data sheet, look for initial lumens and mean lumens values, then divide the mean value by the initial to arrive at a percentage. In any case, good for your buddy. I hope they last!

K Mehta

My vote is yes. I have been using them for more than 4 years. Work very well. High initial cost but really worth it. worth every paisa invested.

Ironduke

The fact that the light output declines over time is an established fact, but how discernible it is to the human eye is another question. The four CFL bulbs, there are installed back-to-back in the ceiling in two fixtures. The fact that there are two bulbs together in each fixture probably makes a difference.

__________________
The Buck Stops Here

Ironduke

Dale, I like them because they help in our energy independence. The less energy used, the better our energy independence.

Ctom3

The fact that the lamps are next to one another should help you see the difference. Then again, it may not. The one thing that you commented on is that he should put the shades back on. I completely agree with this. It raises the possibility that glare is being mistaken for output, which is easy to do. A perfect example of this is the lighting under a gas station canopy. The most commonly used fixtures are real glare bombs. While they give the impression that there is a lot of light under the canopy, you are really responding to direct glare. When you use a light meter under it, the actual levels are much lower than you would expect. The station operators know this and they also know that people respond positively to glare. As one so aptly put it, "it's like drawing moths to a flame." I would suggest putting the shades back on the light fixtures and looking again. While there will be some reduction of levels, it will also diffuse the light, reduce glare and generally improve things.

Under many conditions, the eye has trouble distinguishing differences in light levels until the difference reaches as much as a 10:1 ratio. This is because of the pupil's response to changing conditions to limit the amount of light that enters the eye, just like the aperture on a camera lens. That is why you can see pretty well in as little as 1 foot candle in a dim room, or at over 5,000 foot candles on a summer day. Beyond the direct physiology, your brain also tries to normalize things so that what you perceive is as uniform as possible. So, within a rather broad range, changes in lighting may not be very perceptible. In spite of all of this, light levels do matter a lot. What a kid can see under 30 foot candles may be difficult for an older fart like myself to see in less than 60. It may not be readily apparent until you begin rubbing your eyes and wondering where that headache came from.

dalem

I disagree. No matter how much you or I conserve, the demand for energy will ALWAYS increase. It's not a curve you can beat with light bulbs and dishwashers, just a curve that you can jump off of and onto a different one. From.

Or however my perverted grammar works out there.

-dale

Ironduke

Untrue. Electricity production fell from 3,802,105 GWh in 2000 to 3,736,644 GWh in 2001 in the US. From 2005 to 2006, it barely grew 1%.
Electric Power Annual - Net Generation by Energy Source by Type of Producer

In Denmark, electricity consumption fell from 35.47 billion kWh in 2001 to 34.02 billion kWh in 2005. Likewise, oil consumption fell from 218,000 bbl/day in 2001 to 171,000 bbl/day in 2006.

In Germany, oil consumption fell from 2,813,000 bbl/day in 2001 to 2,650,000 bbl/day in 2005.

Italian oil consumption declined by 5,000 bbl/day between 2001 and 2004.

(Source: 2003 and 2006 World Factbook)

dalem

I'm talking about America - a healthy, growing nation. Besides, how much of those drops were achieved by simple conservation?

-dale

Ironduke

Most of the drops in Germany and Denmark were through conservation. Italy, not sure, but their electricity consumption grew while oil consumption declined, no doubt due to better fuel efficiency.

Even if they grow more slowly than the US, they have consistent population and economic growth year to year. If overall energy use grows less than per capita growth, that's a per capita decline.

According to the EIA, estimated energy consumption in the United States fell from 360 million BTUs in per capita in 1978-1979 to 344 in 2006.

dalem

But is usage linearly reflective of demand?

-dale

Ironduke

Not sure what that means. The fact remains, there is no law requiring that electricity use grow. Electricity use can decline while population and economy grow.

dalem

But I wanna be right!

Waaaaah!

-dale

Ironduke

Don't get me wrong Dale, I don't believe in limiting my energy use because of what Al Gore or Michael Moore say. I do it because I hate to see our money flow overseas for our energy needs. Not that we use oil to generate electricity, but god forbid the day we need to start converting our coal into petroleum. We do import 20% of our natural gas, however.

Europe is in an even worse position than us. Russia and the Middle East. At least all of our gas imports and a good chunk of our oil imports from Canada and Mexico.

zraver

But current prices do not reflect true costs becuase disposal is off-books and left for some one else to pay for eventually. The need for enviromental clean up will never go away, but it can be postponed for a time. So please remeber the cost you incur, but do not pay for. Coal slag, effusion, C02 and other gasses, land fills, spent nuclear fuel robs and the million other hidden and so far delayed disposal costs some one has to foot the bill for someday.

Even if CFL's really cost 3 times thier list price with eventual disposal figured in say 8 dollars a bulb. They are still a better deal on price for the nation as a whole and the individual consumer.

Ironduke

Let me ask another question... does anybody have experience with energy-saving non-CFL lighting? Such as LED, etc?

Any opinions on the viability of high-efficiency incandescents (HEIs)?