Parihaka

It also happens to be paralleling the rise of the bicycle.

__________________
In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz

zraver

1- Compared to the medievil warming period and the maunder minimum we have very accurate records of what grew where, what froze when etc. Fossil records also give a very good record via pollen on what was growing and where.

2- Problem= World wide opinion is growing and forming a gorebal wamring consensus. This could lead to massive cuts in my way of life as assine laws get passed to roll back technology to "save" the planet.

Fix= Take ove rthe argument by co-opting it and guiding the discussion and action in to the development of clean sustainable technologies that make sure my kids don't suffer either from a dirty enviroment (if the gorebals are right) or lack of technology.

Take your ad hominem elsewhere please.

Parihaka

The President and director of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute is James Luyten, Ph.D.

dalem

You're ignoring the possible resolutions available the further back you go. Still not an ounce of proof or evidence that survives the achallenge of "are industrial emissions affecting climate at all, let alone enough to be worrisome.

World wide opinion can go eat a wang, and yes, the Greeniacs are anti-human, not anti-"global warming".

No ad hominems here - I am absolutely opposed to the idea of accepting a scientific falsehood simply for the illusion of getting to where you appear to want to get anyway. I despise all doomsturbation equally whether it's "global warmng" or "peak oil" or "pollution kills" or AIDS or any of that rot.

-dale

smalltexan

I choose to believe the scientists who go out regularly to measure the glaciers'
rates of melting, the polar ice caps' rates of melting, over 80 years of measuring than the few years where it was shown that they are growing. The volcanic activity in New Zealand does affect the glaciers' movements.
However, the links below show that in 50 years, glacier movement on the planet indicates retreat, not growth.

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Glacier - LoveToKnow 1911
Cities in peril as Andean glaciers melt | Science | Guardian Unlimited
Antarctic Ice Sheet Is Melting Rapidly

Bluesman

I am prepared to accept that the planet may be warming. I do NOT accept that it is a provable fact that this is anything extraordinary, or that anything that we could do could cause it or arrest it.

So glaciers growing/shrinking is merely interesting. It isn't the central question.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

gunnut

So according to you the glaciers have retreated in the last 50 years. How about before that? Was anyone around to measure it? How can you predict or diagnose the state of the glacier when we don't know its life history?

It's 65F at 8am here.

Temperature rises to 72 by 9am.

We now have 80 at 10am.

I predict we'll hit 89 by 11am; 99 at noon time; 110 by 1pm; 122 by 2pm; 135 at 3pm; 149 at 4pm; and the entire earth will burn up by 5pm.

Is that a valid extrapolation?

__________________
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

Parihaka

No it doesn't. New Zealands active volcanoes are in the Te Ika a Maui (North Island) not Te Wai Pounamu (South Island) and have no effect on the South Island glaciers.
So how do you explain the current 150 year retreat (as far back as the current retreat is measured) in terms of anthropomorphic carbon emission?
And yes, even by your wiki article, both Franz Joseph and Fox, on the west coast of Te Wai Pounamu, are currently growing subject to rainfall from the Tasman sea which they border. The Tasman sea is of course, effected by El Nino and La Nina, which I have already stated.
And again, how are previous glacial advances and retreats such as the medieval warm period or early 1800's mini ice age explained under anthropomorphic carbon emission?
yes thank you, but I've stood on, climbed on, skied and jumped into several of them, so I do know what they are.
Here's a more informative non-newspaper article with links to peer reviewed articles covering glacial retreat.
RealClimate » Worldwide glacier retreat Recul mondial des glaciers
Source with links to peer reviewed articles, again not a newspaper.

Parihaka

At the risk of labouring the point: There was a mini or little ice age which, as your glacial retreat article also from wiki neatly illustrates, ended in the early to mid 19th century. Since then glaciers have been in general retreating as the earth warms.
So it begs the question, how is anthropomorphic carbon emission, or human generated carbon from oil consumption, responsible for this?

chankya

The logical link being that the El Nino and La Nina are affected by the thermohaline currents which in turn is affected by GW.

__________________
"Of all the manifestations of power, restraint impresses men the most." - Thucydides

zraver

Ahh, well figures the people would change with time (and I did mispell his name) but the change isn't offical until July 17th. and James Luyten, Ph.D. is only a temp Dir/Pres.

Robert B. Gagosian
President and Director
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

Prepared for a panel on abrupt climate change at the
World Economic Forum
Davos, Switzerland, January 27, 2003

Are we overlooking potential abrupt climate shifts?
Most of the studies and debates on potential climate change, along with its ecological and economic impacts, have focused on the ongoing buildup of industrial greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and a gradual increase in global temperatures. This line of thinking, however, fails to consider another potentially disruptive climate scenario. It ignores recent and rapidly advancing evidence that Earth’s climate repeatedly has shifted abruptly and dramatically in the past, and is capable of doing so in the future

Abrupt Climate Change: Should We Be Worried? : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

From the article

It is important to clarify that we are not contemplating a situation of either abrupt cooling or global warming. Rather, abrupt regional cooling and gradual global warming can unfold simultaneously. Indeed, greenhouse warming is a destabilizing factor that makes abrupt climate change more probable. A 2002 report by the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS) said, “available evidence suggests that abrupt climate changes are not only possible but likely in the future, potentially with large impacts on ecosystems and societies.”2

The timing of any abrupt regional cooling in the future also has critical policy implications. An abrupt cooling that happens within the next two decades would produce different climate effects than one that occurs after another century of continuing greenhouse warming.

ROBERT B. GAGOSIAN is President and Director of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. He was appointed Director in 1994 and President in 2001, following a distinguished career as a marine geochemist. He has served as Chairman of the Board of Governors for the 52-institution Consortium for Oceanographic Research and Education and as a member of the Ocean Research Advisory Panel of the US National Oceanographic Partnership Program. In 2002, he was appointed to the Science Advisory Panel of the US Commission on Ocean Policy and the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Science Advisory Board, and was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences.

What sources will you accept?

They are out to get you, and standign on principle only means they will get you. My fellow conservatives often seme to think if you ignore a problem it will go away. But you can't ignore movements that make thier appeals to un and under educated masses you have to co-opt them and steer them in constructive directions.

Parihaka

The globe is warming, yes, and has been since the 1600s. There may be a correlation between the severity of ENSO and global temperature.

Parihaka

Okay, now I see where your coming from. Yes, as he says
Yes, the Earths climate has shifted dramatically in the past, and will almost certainly change in the future, irrespective of our input.
Getting rid of an oil economy will not affect this.
It has not been shown to be a product of carbon emissions.
More study is urgently needed so we can understand and plan for it.

brokensickle

IVAN

__________________
"Evil opposes freedom and uses those who pervert it as pawns to destroy it."

Parihaka

Actually it's increased by 0.65 degrees Celsius in just twenty years, far faster than earth.