Sombra

Bold statement Omon. Can you tell me under which circumstances for example "thermodynamics" don´t come into play?
Or with other words: Which movement or work you can do without the involvement of energy?

omon

no work can be done without energy, not all energy, is a termodynamics process
energy of permanent magnet.

Sombra

Ok here is the seed of our different world view. IMO all processes involving energy are related to the laws of thermodynamics per definition.

You are saying that the magnetic force is some kind kind of energy? It seems you are using a different kind of definition whats energy than I do.

y_raj

I couldn't understand your statement.
if you mean a magnet works without involving thermodynamics then you are violating laws of modern physics.

__________________
anyone who says " easy as stealing a candy from a child " , has never tried it. !

omon

yes magnets have power to repel and attract, without any input, their internal energy does the work. there are numerous patents, and working models to prove that internal energy of pm can do work, they may not be good enough to give us any use yet(some more some less),that is just one example.
in my defenition of energy(i don,t even know official one) is that energy is power that is used to do a work, it could be in many forms, electricity, heat, light, could be produced either by td procces or not.
as far as i know pm dont require any td procces to repel and attract. do they?

omon

which laws?
yes, magnets work without involving thermodynamics.
than i guess i am violating laws of modern physics.

highsea

Omon, energy went into the creation of the magnet.

Electromagnetism (more accurately the electroweak force) does not violate 2LOT. Not even in nuclear decay/fission, where you get a lot of energy from a very small amount of matter.

__________________
My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

dave lukins

Omon,be careful that the physics-cops dont come to arrest you for breaking one of their laws!!!!Thermodynamics:the science of the relations between heat and other(mechanical.electrical etc)forms of energy..Energy:the capacity of matter or radiation to do WORK or ,the means of doing WORK by utilizing matter/energy.Radiation:the emission of Energy as Electromagnetic waves........just to make things clear!!!

omon

phisycs veiw of the world changes every 100 years or so.
no energy is created or destroyed, we simply convert it depeding on our needs, it's all around us, we know how to tap into it by many means,hydrelectic plants, nuclearplant, ic engine..ect, there are just as many ways that we don't know.
permanent magnets are sources of energy, we can tap into their energy, and converte it into movment, which can then be converted to electricity, there is no machine that creates energy, only transfers from one form to another, so it's imposible to make pm machine that takes no energy while giving it, however it is posible to use energy, that is not as obvious as gas, or coal, or water flow, if we can't see it it doesn't mean it's not there.
a machine that takes free energy, like magnetic, gravity..., that we don't pay for, and gives us usefull energy, like electricity, light,motion, heat..., can be considered a pm machine, or free energy machine. no need to brake any laws of phisycs,
btw hydroelectic plants are free energy machines, they'll run as long as there is water flow,there is no burning or fusion involved, and we don,t pay for water flow.

As defined: Perpetual motion refers to a condition in which an object moves forever without being driven by an external source of energy. key word external, but there is such thing as internal energy.

GGTharos

What do you mean you don't pay for magnetic energy?
The field is always induced by -something- or other - without going into details of how a permament magnet works, you don't get to use it for *free*. That magnet must be created and that costs energy. Just because you found it lying around doesn't mean it's 'free' - jsut because YOU did not pay the cost, doesn't mean its free.
If someone gifts you a car, is it free? Only to you, because you didn't pay for it in any way - such as building it, or well, paying the cash.

Similarely, you just buried your argument by including gravity. Again, it is not *free*. You have to spend energy going *up* to get some coming back down. Worse yet, you're going to get less energy out of coming down than you did going up, due to various losses.

That's right, there is, and it is radiated *outside* of the system no matter what you do. So your internal energy is reduced until it reaches such a point as to be unable to make your machine longer.
So there's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. A 'free energy' machine, as you've defined it, is no perpetual motion machine.

Don't do this - you're confusing yourself and others by throwing this argument in here.

(By the way. That gifted car? All external energy to get it to you )

omon

if you include energy that takes to build the machine, than i'd be clear to everyone that it's imposible, it would be just as clear as that rain is water, we don't debate about it, do we? however the question is if it posible to build the machine. energy spent on constacting it is not relavant.
every one uses 2lot, law of conservation of energy, to disprove one, not becouse it takes energy to build one, that is silly
yes it takes energy to make a magnet, so what? we are talking about machine that spins or does any kind of motion without external imput, building one takes energy, but that is out of our equation.
if your resons for a pm being imposible, is that it takes energy to build one, or the components will wear out, and someting is going to break, than you are far away from the point.
the key word is perpetual motion machine, not perpetual machine that lasts forever, it's the motion that lasts forever, as long as the machine works properly.

GGTharos

The machine can't work properly if it breaks down. if it breaks down then it is not conserving evergy - it's doing something with it that it isn't /supposed/ to.

Matt1006

Perpetual motion on earth in its definition is not possible with current thinking methods our science platform gives us. Friction and heat play a major role for a self supporting device.

I started experimenting with this concept a few years ago. After building contraptions that I should be locked up for, I have however built a machine that will produce more energy than it takes to run. It's current size prohibits powering large appliances but it will power the lights in my work shop. I have utilized current electronics to assist the prototype which a few years ago simply where not available. Will the bearings wear out, yes. Will the armatures wear out, yes however, imagine having a larger scale version in the back of your house lets say the size of a oven that will power your entire house! When I choose to go public with this device, maybe others can stand on my shoulders and perfect what I have not.

Julie

Patent it now.

omon

it'll be very hard to patent, and to get manufecturer to make it, there are numerous patents, and nothing in production. instead give it away for free, send bluprints everywhare you can, this way it'll be harder to cover up, you probably won't make any money, but you will be know to a lot of people, than.. you never know.